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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=198182422-06082003>(...)
Valerie wrote ..</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman"
color=#000000 size=3>There was no sound on the QuickTime video clips that the
Swiss group gave me, plus the person who was signing was using a very "Deaf
storytelling style" and I bet she wasn't thinking of spoken words...So I just
wrote what I saw her lips do, and I did not write every detail of mouth
movements either...so naturally it would not be the same as your Mundbilder
standardization...so this might be a case where standard "storytelling" facial
expressions could be categorized someday...standards like that could be
established without hurting the flexibility of the general SignWriting
system...</FONT><BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dear
Valerie and friends, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>from
my point of view this is a very important aspect of spelling - style in SW,
which is worthwhile a more detailed discussion. At least for the
German-speaking area I can predict that GebaerdenSchrift has to include more
"Mundbilder" if you really want to proof it to be a valuable writing
system. (If you want to be able to understand / (= to be able to translate
the written document to a text in spoken language) Perhaps we should distinguish
between general movement writing that is not bound to any "spoken language !!!"
and a special SL - </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I took
some time to study the Swiss video once again and - hm - you better
should not bet - .. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Here
are the words which were spoken ... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov1:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>(pfffff)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Gott -<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Erde - mach - </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT color=#000000><FONT size=4>mov2:<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>- Vulkan –
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT color=#000000><FONT size=4>mov3:<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Wasser – Fluss --- See
<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov4:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Pflanze ---- Pflanze --- Baum --- Baum –
Wald -- Landschaft</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov5:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>--- Menschen ----
Menschen --- geboren – Familie – andere<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>--- </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
size=4><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>geboren Familie </FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov6:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>bauen –
Haus – Garten – Idee --- Idee – wünsch --- andre auch </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 72pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 72.0pt"><FONT
color=#000000><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">–<SPAN
style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">
</SPAN></SPAN>andere auch</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov7:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Menschen –
verschieden – Kultur – eigen – Wissen -<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>sein </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov8:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>alles da – da<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>-<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>wenig – </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
size=4>mov9:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>töten – Streit<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>- Eifersucht – lügen<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>- stehlen<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov10:
mehr – schlimm – schlimm </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov11:
Gott – schlimm – schlimm – traurig –</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000
size=4>mov12:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Familie – fried<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>- lieb – </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov
13:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>da – schön – Haus -<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>verschied – Tiere – Kuh – (???) – Ziege
– </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
size=4><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Garten </FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov14:
Mann – Vater – Noah</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov15:
Stall – Kuh _ </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT color=#000000><FONT size=4>mov16: - was –
<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov17:
- Gott<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>- bitte – nicht – Angst –
muss – sagen – groß – Schiff – bauen – durch - verschieden – Tiere – sammeln –
auch – Familie </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov18:
- Noah<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>- </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov19:
Familie – sammel – Holz – </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov20:
Kuh – </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov21:
bauen – </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov22:
- Leute – Schiff – Land – </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT color=#000000 size=4>mov23:
- Familie – bauen – bauen – bau – Arche</FONT></P></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Of
course she was thinking of spoken words ... How comes that ? Mh, I guess
that it is part of the "Deaf storytelling style" and I think it
is very worthwhile to accept and to understand that. From my point of
view we will find an explanation that the "informed reader/audience"
concentrates and collects data from a mixture of the signing and the
performed "Mundbilder" </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If
people understand that the information that is expressed with the performance of
the Mundbilder is no just a casual additiv but a meaning generating aspect of
the signing then they will understand that we will have to write this aspect in
our SW-transcription as well. In order to be able to do so you
have to be familiar with the performed SL. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I sat
down and watched the videos very carefully concentrating on the Mundbilder - you
will be surprised to read that the deaf woman performed sooooooo many
Mundbilder --- in fact there are so many "silent" words during long scenes
- </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>On the
other hand - there are other scenes - kind of pantomimic, gestual
descriptions of animal movements where no addiditional words are to be expected
.... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Congratulations for the solution with the sw-list </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Stefan;-)) </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=198182422-06082003> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<BR><B>Von:</B> SignWriting List
[mailto:SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA]<B>Im Auftrag von </B>Valerie
Sutton<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Dienstag, 5. August 2003 23:24<BR><B>An:</B>
SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA<BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: AW: ZURICH: WRITING REPETITIVE
MOTION...or Question Spelling FROG/FROSCH<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>SignWriting
List<BR>August 5, 2003<BR><BR>Hello Stefan..Thanks for this message...<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>this sign is not the sign for the "Swiss - German" Frog but it
is the<BR>running of a lion ;-))<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I could not find the
attached sign for lion...did you attach it?<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>- it is almost impossible to identify a single sign without the
facial<BR>expressions for the "Mundbilder" -<BR><BR>I can imagine that some
day we will discuss the writing of the "Mundbilder"<BR>as I call the
movements of the lips while the person performs movements as<BR>if speaking
- for other SL of the world as well -<BR><BR>Since I defined a list of
facial expressions to symbolize a special set of<BR>articulation movements
(Mundbilder) I am able to read even very old<BR>documents without any
difficulty. Single entries in a dictionary can be<BR>identified btter. One
proble might be that from SL to SL the set of<BR>mouthsymbols may be
different ... But everybody of us is writing for a<BR>special audience - and
the readers are usually informed SL users ....<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Yes, of
course, I know that your Mundbilder standard symbols, based on SignWriting
facial expressions, are excellent, and I am impressed with its accuracy for
those who know spoken-German!<BR><BR>Obviously, when I was writing from
videotape, as I did the Swiss-German Sign Language storytelling for NOAH, I
was not basing anything on spoken language...There was no sound on the
QuickTime video clips that the Swiss group gave me, plus the person who was
signing was using a very "Deaf storytelling style" and I bet she wasn't
thinking of spoken words...So I just wrote what I saw her lips do, and I did
not write every detail of mouth movements either...so naturally it would not
be the same as your Mundbilder standardization...so this might be a case where
standard "storytelling" facial expressions could be categorized
someday...standards like that could be established without hurting the
flexibility of the general SignWriting system...<BR><BR>So a question is: Will
all German-speaking countries adopt the same Mundbilder? That would be an
interesting question...the signs are different from country to country, but
maybe the movements of the mouth are the same in German-speaking
countries?...;-)<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks again for your wonderful<BR>email
lessons<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thank you for expressing your thanks for my
lessons - I appreciate it!<BR><BR><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000>Val
;-)<BR><BR><BR>Valerie
Sutton<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>Sutton@SignWriting.org<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR><BR>1.
SignWriting
Site<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>http://www.SignWriting.org<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR>Read
& Write Sign Languages<BR><BR>2. SignBank Site<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>http://www.SignBank.org<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR>Sign
Language Dictionaries<BR><BR>3. Post to SignWriting List<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR><BR>4.
SignWriting List
Archives<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/sw-l.html<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR><BR>5.
SignWriting
Shop<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 0000,6666,0000>http://www.SuttonShop.com<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR>Books,
videos, CDs, software<BR><BR>6. DanceWriting Site<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>http://www.DanceWriting.org<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR>Read
& Write Dance<BR><BR>7. MovementWriting Site<BR><?/color><U><?color><?param 1A1A,1A1A,FFFF>http://www.MovementWriting.org<?/color></U><?color><?param 5454,0000,0000><BR>Read
& Write Movement & Gesture<BR><BR>Deaf Action Committee for
SignWriting<BR>Center For Sutton Movement Writing<BR>an educational nonprofit
organization<BR>Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038-0517, USA<BR>tel:
858-456-0098....fax: 858-456-0020<?/color></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>