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<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dear
Antony, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I came
home and found your long letter. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thank
you very, very much indeed. It is not too often that people take their time to
write such a long comment. In addidition to that I like your engagement
for the "DEAF culture" movement. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hm -
it is not easy to describe what is really going on - and you can bet that I am
the last one who wants to turn back to oralism - ! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You
are right here in Germany and as well at our facility there has been a strong
politics to focus on articulation, lipreading ... spoken language.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sign
Language has been almost forbidden if you want to trust former colleagues-
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>But
just as you said - times have changed. Right now we offer German Sign Language
and Signed German - which is preferred by many hearing teacher.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
tried my best to improve my own signing skills in DGS. When I am invited
to teach SignWriting or GebaerdenSchrift as we call it here in
Germany to deaf participants I perform my presentation
in </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>DGS. </FONT> <FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>When
I introduce any new concepts, ideas , informations to my deaf students age
8 - 13 - I would choose DGS as well. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>On the
other hand there is a kind of Exact signed German (LBG) every spoken words
is signed - word - by - word - I agree with you! This is often confusing
and too often it is almost redicolous to expect profound deaf students to
understand the idea ... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>While
reading a German text it helps on the other side to find the unknown words or to
identify misconceptions... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So far
so good ;-)) </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Now
guess what! I looked hours and hours at videos with strong DEAF
storytelling style , talked (signed) to competend Deaf SL - users and studied SL
instruction manuals ... </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I see
that it seems to be a difficult thing for you to
accept this Mundbild-aspect</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2> - but it is a fact : German SL
includes a lot of mouthing. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This
makes sense. Why? There are too many meanings/possibilities connected with one
sign if you only focus on the manual part. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Of course we do have mouthgestures and other facial expressions as
you describe them as well ! And you are absolutely right - from time to time you
can see signers who do not use as many Mundbilder as
others. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Some
time before we had a short discussion with Valerie about the Swiss -
German - "Noah" version - </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Well
the deaf woman performs a wonderful signing but there are parts with more and
other with less Mundbilder. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dear
Antony - you wrote : </FONT> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>"</SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000>No this proves a problem
for Stefan. As the signs of the FSL and the ASL are similar for similar
things (eg chair), but the spoken word is
different....</FONT> <SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>"</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>Oh no - I have got no problem with that
whatsoever!!! I am not a kind of judge who is in the position to make any
decision about a good or a better way of signing !!!
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>But the longer I deal with SignWriting , the better I
understand the power of MovementWriting the better I can differentiate between
different similar symbols , - </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>I am only a scribe who tries to collect information and
who tries to write down what he sees. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>And believe me - I simply watch some video sequences
again and again and again focusing on different aspects - just because it is too
much to identify the exact handform at the startpostion and the performance of
the mouth at the same time - (this seems to be much easier if you are not in
duty to write a transkription - ha!! ) </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>Nevertheless if it is enough to sign without a mouthing
that would be fine with me - I do not mind if people add mouthing.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>I do not like if people play games and do not ask for
the meaning if they do not understand. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>Let me put it this way - I would love to discuss this
aspect on how to describe what the mouth is doing in different SL of the world!!
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>Sometimes it is mouthgesture - sometimes this is kind
of speaking without sound. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>To be able to express this aspect in a written SW -
document is very important to me. If the mouthing is an important
information ( as it is - definitly in German speaking countries) there
should be a symbol set that describes this aspect -- otherwise our document
would look like interesting but hard to understand ;-(((
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>Thanks once again and I would be
sooooooooooooooooooooo interested to watch some strong DEAF storytelling
videos from Australia -- ( smile --) </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=546052420-19082003>Look forward to hearing from you
soon</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face=Verdana size=3></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face=Verdana size=3>if Stefan teaches children this oralistic way, then for him
the mouth movements are very important. To educate the Deaf, it has very
little value.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3></FONT> </DIV></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>Hi Antony - no - I do not teach them this
oralistic way - but I am very, very engaged to improve the Literacy
</FONT> <FONT face=Verdana color=#000000 size=3>in spoken Language !!
In order to improve the knowledge of the German spoken language the
"Mundbilder " are very , very supportive!! </FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>All
the very best </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Verdana color=#000000
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Stefan
</FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=546052420-19082003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<BR><B>Von:</B> SignWriting List
[mailto:SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA]<B>Im Auftrag von </B>Antony
Daamen<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Dienstag, 19. August 2003 06:06<BR><B>An:</B>
SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA<BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: Mouthings- question for
Stefan<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<TABLE id=INCREDIMAINTABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%"
border=0><TBODY>
<TR>
<TD id=INCREDITEXTREGION style="CURSOR: auto; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"
vAlign=top width="100%">
<DIV>19/08/03</DIV>
<DIV>HI Ingvild and Stefan,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I have been with this site for a while and I would like to add
my 2-bobs worth.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Here in Australia we have Auslan (Australian Sign Language).
This is the language that the Deaf use, when they are among themselves
and that is their natural language. Often the signs, don's have an
English equivalent. The natural sign language of the Deaf is
often conceptual, not a word for word translation of the host language.
Host being the language of the hearing majority in the area where the
Deaf live. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>To prove the point, the ASL (American Sign Language) uses a one
handed alphabet and the Auslan uses two handed, eventhough the host
language is both a form of English! Incidently the BSL (British Sign
Language) is the 'ancestor' of Auslan and FSL(Frensch Sign Language) the
ancestor of ASL. However all these languages are distinctly
different from one another. The FSL and ASL are related, but the
host language is different!! </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>No this proves a problem for Stefan. As the signs of the FSL
and the ASL are similar for similar things (eg chair), but the
spoken word is different.... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The point is that for the Deaf person that has never heard a word,
the mouthing is a waste of time. a case in point: my wife is
profoundly Deaf, but is an excellent lipreader. however, she is
very very frustrated by people mouthing the words and signing at the
same time! She can't watch both the mouth and the hands at the
same time and this only confuses the conversation. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also hearing people that try to be helpful by using the now
old-fashioned 'Total Communication' well know that if they try to speak
and sign at the same time, either the signing becomes more like the
spoken language grammatically and signs are left out, or the spoken
words become more like the signs grammatically and there will be words
left out.....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sadly over the last 200years there has been alot of oppression of
the Deaf and their language (Read any book of Harlan Lane, and you will
see what I mean). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>before this time, there were Deaf boarding schools, with Deaf
teachers that used the native Sign Language to educate the Deaf. The
education of the Deaf was very good. This was 'The Golden Age' of the
Deaf. They were able to reach there potential, held jobs, were
respected in society. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sadly, Germany, Italy and to a lesser degree England all were in
favour of the Oral method. While the Deaf schools focussed on
giving information/education, the oral method focussed on speech and
then the information/deucation through there faulty ears.... This
has proven to be a disaster for the Deaf.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It has been proven that people don't learn a language they
<STRONG>acquire </STRONG>(hope i spelled this right) a language.
so the more they hear a language, the better their speech clarity and
vocabulairy will be... So students that are hard or hearing became
the 'succes stories' and the true (profoundly) Deaf, became the
'failures'. I am sure that Stefan is able to supply profoundly
Deaf people that can speak, however these are deifinitly in the
minority.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> The 'Black Day' in Deaf history was the Milan Convention in
1880. It was then that the educators of the day decided that
oralism would be the way of the future. Sadly with this, the
future of the Deaf was doomed. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Focussing on speech,then education through speech was the way these
educators would teach the Deaf.... German and Italian
educators were at the forefront of this idea....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>children were being caned, had to sit on their hands, anything to
stop them from signing... It was thought that if they signed they would
not be using their ears and mouth... again Germany, Italy (and
Holland, where I come from) were the most fanatical...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>After 120 years of this oppression of their language it is
amazingthe sign Language survived at all...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, after the war there was a blooming of oralism. It was
thought that if we can find a hearing aid strong enough and a speach
therapist persistant enough, the majority of Deaf would be 'normal'
(=hearing). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>After 10-20 or whatever years they realised this doesn't
work. So the (hearing) educators had an idea! Let's take the Sign
Language what these Deaf persist in using, put it in the host language
grammatical structure, make up signs for the words that there are no
signs for, speak at the same time as signing and then the Deaf will know
what we are talking about!! Clever (D'oh)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So to put this in perspective: Lets take Norwegian spoken language,
put it in German grammar and this will help you to understand German
better. We will only allow one Norwegian word for each German
word, and only one German word for each Norwegian word, and you will be
so much better at both languages. To make it even clearer, we will
speak a German word, then a Norwegian word and so on!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That is still being used today and is called (in Australia:)
Sign(ed) English).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Today, here in Townsville that is the going thought of the local
schools.... So over all these years the Deaf had speech
therapy, and lip reading was sadly the tool they used to try to
understand......</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is the environment Stefan is in. Probalby the true
German Sign Language is being mixed with the Sign German. I imagine he
has a sign for every equivalent of The (das des dem den, etc), but in
the true German Sign Language there was never a sign for "the" in the
first place. As every Deaf student is
(probably)undergoing speech therapy, the lip patterns are still
very important for the hearing educators, so the Deaf will know what
word is being said (sorry signed). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As interpreters know very well, the variation of meaning of words
in any language </DIV>
<DIV>For example,we have a sign for "Thank you", but depending on the
context it can also mean "Appreciate." The word appreciate can also
convey the thought of understand. "I appreciate the meeting is
very important to you", would not be signed with the sign "Thank you",
but with the sign for "understand." As an interpreter we choose
according to the context the appropriate sign. Mouthing "appreciate" is
absolute useless in this case </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In Auslan and also ASL, we do make mouth movements, but these are
unrelated to the spoken words equivalent of the sign. We have a
tight-lips mouth movement, which convey intensity. If we use this
with the sign for "near" then it meant "very near". we have a mouthing
of the word "pah", which has many different meanings depending on the
signs it is being used.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So, if Germany still uses Sign German, is still in this oralistic
movement, if Stefan teaches children this oralistic way, then for him
the mouth movements are very important. To educate the Deaf, it
has very little value.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Antony</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original
Message-------</I></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=receivestrings>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A
href="mailto:SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA">SignWriting List</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> Monday, August
18, 2003 22:34:20</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A
href="mailto:SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA">SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> Mouthings-
question for Stefan</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>Hi Stefan and all,<BR><BR>on your site <A
href="http://www.gebaerdenschirft.de">www.gebaerdenschirft.de</A> , you
have a diagram of mouthing<BR>symbols used in Germany.<BR><BR>Some of
the symbols are compoesed of a face/mouth symbol and a hand
symbol<BR>near the mouth.<BR><BR>If these are used to train German
spoken language, I can well understand<BR>them.<BR><BR>But as I
understand, German Sign Language uses mouthing as part of the<BR>sign
language itself, as does Norwegian Sign Language.<BR>How do you write
the mouthing when the hands are otherwise
occupied???<BR><BR>Ingvild<BR>. </TD></TR>
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