<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>Valerie,</P>
<P>Of course I can wait until March :) Actually, I think what I'm really waiting for is the SW-edit, since I find DOS 4.4 too clumbsy (if thats the correct word in English...) and right now my computer isn't sophisticated enough to use even Java. So I'm handwriting, "paintwriting" a little bit etc. But as I am just a mere SL interpreter student (and a real interpreter in a few months), and I have no real big SW project going on, I'm doing just fine ... :) But I AM waiting for any sensible enough program that I can use to write SW by computer, since A) my handwritign in any language is awfully messy b) with computer you can more easily store what you've done and re-produce it...So yeah, I'm just fine <IMG height=12 src="http://graphics.hotmail.com/emsmiled.gif" width=12> ...I just wanted to say SOME day I think we're gonna need the other orientations too...</P>
<P>Nitsu<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: Valerie Sutton <SUTTON@SIGNWRITING.ORG>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: SignWriting List <SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>
<DIV></DIV>>To: SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: Finnish Towns
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:02:40 -0700
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>SignWriting List
<DIV></DIV>>October 9, 2003
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Nitsu - All these new symbols can easily be added to SignBank or
<DIV></DIV>>SW-Edit, and in a few years, in SignWriter Java too...so it is just
<DIV></DIV>>a matter of time. Right now you have to survive with what we have,
<DIV></DIV>>so just write it as you did, or wait until I come out with SignBank
<DIV></DIV>>for Research Use in March, 2004. I am not saying no...I am just
<DIV></DIV>>saying I don't have software for you right now...can you wait until
<DIV></DIV>>March? smile...and this is not strange at all...there has never been
<DIV></DIV>>a written form for the world's signed languages before in history,
<DIV></DIV>>and in 30 years we have accomplished more than what other writing
<DIV></DIV>>systems have taken centuries to create...so we can give the software
<DIV></DIV>>a little more time! The symbols exist, and the software has to catch
<DIV></DIV>>up ;-)
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>By the way, Chinese characters had trouble being typed in the
<DIV></DIV>>beginning too...only in recent times has it become easier, because
<DIV></DIV>>of Unicode and other developments...
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Val ;-)
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>------------------------------
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Nitsu Pikkupyora wrote:
<DIV></DIV>>>I see your point very well. With Finnish sign HOUSE that's a
<DIV></DIV>>>possible thing to do, but I think it still doesn't solve the
<DIV></DIV>>>problem. There are other signs that must be distiguished... like
<DIV></DIV>>>the city name Jyvaeskylae. It's a well-know place and the sign is
<DIV></DIV>>>widely used. I illustrate the problem in the attachement. Even if
<DIV></DIV>>>we write HOUSE as you suggested, in a "international" way, we still
<DIV></DIV>>>need to deal with similar signs, which won't be understood if
<DIV></DIV>>>spelled incorrectly. I don't mean that all the signs must be
<DIV></DIV>>>"exact", for example the earlier mentioned Turku is no problem. But
<DIV></DIV>>>JYVAESKYLAE, MANNER, and some other signs form a problem.
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>And here we come back again to the issue wich I remember
<DIV></DIV>>>was discussed a long long time ago: how to write a car traveling up
<DIV></DIV>>>or down a hill...in Finnish we use the flat B-handshape for
<DIV></DIV>>>that...That would be easily solved by using the correct
<DIV></DIV>>>orientation... But I understand it would get really complex to add
<DIV></DIV>>>so many new orientations to softwares...
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>Still I wonder would it be technically possibel some far away day
<DIV></DIV>>>to have a SW-edit -kind of program, were you could chose to use
<DIV></DIV>>>these in-between orientations... in stead of having two basic
<DIV></DIV>>>orientations, to have six...maybe not in the basic category ( where
<DIV></DIV>>>you chose things) but any way in somewhere so that when you need
<DIV></DIV>>>them, you can use them. Because when considering the
<DIV></DIV>>>everyday-writing issue, it would be a LOT of trouble trying to
<DIV></DIV>>>convince the Finnish SignLanguage users, that SW is a sensible way
<DIV></DIV>>>of writing SL, even though a very important part of tha language
<DIV></DIV>>>cannot really be written...because cars going up and down and all
<DIV></DIV>>>the hills and vallies are not some rare used signs but belong to
<DIV></DIV>>>the core of the language...
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>I don't know... it's strange that a thing so easy in real world
<DIV></DIV>>>and even in handSignWriting, forms a real problem when talking
<DIV></DIV>>>about computers...
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>You see what I mean?
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>Nitsu
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >From: Valerie Sutton
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Reply-To: SignWriting List
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >To: SW-L@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Subject: Re: Finnish Towns
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:16:23 -0700
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >SignWriting List
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >October 8, 2003
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >But, Nitsu, here is my opinion -
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >I believe that writing those inbetween palm facings is a good
<DIV></DIV>>>idea
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >for
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Research Use, but for Everyday Use, I would choose to write the
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Finnish, Norwegian and American signs for HOUSE the
<DIV></DIV>>>same...YES...I
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >know
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >that the Finnish and Norwegian signs do have a different plam
<DIV></DIV>>>facing
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >than the American...but does such detail really matter for
<DIV></DIV>>>Everyday
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Use?...
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >When I moved to Denmark, as a hearing person, I had to learn my
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >second
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >spoken language, Danish. When I looked at the word "meget" in
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Danish,
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >which means "very" in English, I found out that in the numerous
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >dialects of spoken Danish, that the word "meget" is pronounced
<DIV></DIV>>>very
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >differently around Denmark. The Copenhagen dialect pronounced it
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >like
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >"myeth", but on the Jutland peninsula they pronounced each letter
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >the
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >way we would in English...so why don't the Copenhagen people
<DIV></DIV>>>spell
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >their version differently? because it would mean there would be
<DIV></DIV>>>many
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >ways to spell the same word, and that becomes overwhelming for
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >people...so spoken languages use the same Roman alphabet symbols
<DIV></DIV>>>to
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >represent many different sounds...as you can see in
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >"myeth"...Another
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >example in Danish: the word "mad" means "food" and the "d" at the
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >end
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >is pronounced with a "th", like "math" except ...it is slightly
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >different than the English "th" - so it is not like "math", but
<DIV></DIV>>>with
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >a
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >unique "d" sound to the Danish language...smile...writing those
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >differences would be rediculous for everyday use...
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >In spoken languages, we have the International Phonetic Alphabet
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >(IPA),
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >which is supposed to have a way to write these differences...so I
<DIV></DIV>>>am
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >suggesting that our Research Use symbolset (SSS-2004) is like the
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >IPA...and you may want to use that for your research...but when
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >writing
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >the sign for HOUSE daily, I would suggest using this standard
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >spelling
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >(see diagram)...So how would a person know how to pronouce the
<DIV></DIV>>>sign
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >for
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >HOUSE in the US and Finland?..When they live in the US, they will
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >learn
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >to pronouce it the way they sign it in the US, and when they move
<DIV></DIV>>>to
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >Finland, the Finnish deaf people will teach them to do the
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >orientation
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >a little bit differently, but the sign will be spelled the same
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >between
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >the countries...smile...I hope this rediculously long answer has
<DIV></DIV>>>not
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >confused you further! Val ;-)
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> >
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> ><< house-01-US.gif >>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>> ><< house-01-US.gif >>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>><IMAGE.TIFF>
<DIV></DIV>>>
<DIV></DIV>>>MSN Messenger on nopeampi kuin s –[ k i osti ja henkil
4
<DIV></DIV>>>ohtaisempi kuin chat. Lataa t –ý t U ilmaiseksi.
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