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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ure more than welcome, Tini!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Shane<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Tini Pel<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 31 January 2005 15:21<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] Signed
English, not English Sign Language?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thank you Charles, you made a lot of sense</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I have made a print-out of Valerie's, Shane and
your messages and I will show it to the teachers here.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I understand Valerie's explanation to called it
"Signed English" </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks for showing interrest, I really appreciate the help</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Tini.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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margin-left:2.5pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM" title="chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">Charles
Butler</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu"
title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Monday, January
31, 2005 12:29 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [sw-l] Signed
English, not English Sign Language?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Some generally used terms.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>ASL - a signed language with its own grammar, which uses some nouns and
verbs which have Englsh equivalents, but has, as any other language, its own
idioms and expressions that are not "one to one" correspondences.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>PSE - Pidgin Signed English. The words (nouns, verbs,
adjectives) of ASL in a more English grammar order. This does not include
noun endings like "ment" or "ed" but more like "my
judge faulty" for "my judgement is faulty" which is sort of
middle ground between ASL and Signed English.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>SEE - Signed Exact English - This is an invention of the public school
system to teach children who use ASL the words of ASL in English grammar order
complete with English word endings. Because ASL has different words for
"bear" and "bare" (for example) it really does require a
knowledge of both languages for "meaning". They fingerspell
"ed" or "s" or "the" or lots of the other little
words that make English verbs make sense. "Have" (as the
helping verb), I have told you so (meaning past tense) is often signed with
"have" (possession) sign from ASL, so there is much confusion on a
grammatical level. I am NOT an expert in SEE.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I think it is likely, Tini, that you are using some variant of PSE
because you don't use all the little "particles" that make English
grammar English, but signs in English grammar order. I tend to use SW in
that way myself, with sometimes leaning more toward ASL and sometimes more
toward SEE depending on the audience. Some late-life learning users of
Signed Language have more English grammar, some less. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Make sense?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Charles Butler<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Valerie Sutton <sutton@signwriting.org></span></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>SignWriting List<br>
January 30, 2005<br>
<br>
Hello Everyone and Tini -<br>
I am no expert, but I thought that when you are signing in English word <br>
order, that that is called Signed English. Not English Sign Language, <br>
which would mean a dialect of British Sign Language to me! But it is <br>
not for me to say. Here in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
ESL stands for ...English as a <br>
Second Language.. and there are ESL teachers who teach English to <br>
native Spanish speakers...smile...It is ok, Tini - If it is not true <br>
ASL it is good that you have at least differentiated from that...Val <br>
;-)<br>
<br>
---------------------------<br>
<br>
On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Tini Pel wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hello Valerie,<br>
> <br>
> Thank you for the compliments and mentioning on the list about
the <br>
> poem. It has been a long time since I did Sign Writing a poem. It made <br>
>! ; me sit with my dictionary again, which was a very good exercise.<br>
> I am still working on your family poem off and on. But I will <br>
> eventually get it.<br>
> <br>
> You wrote:<br>
> I have a question about your term CESL...for <br>
> Canadian-English-Sign-Language...That is usually called ASL, is it <br>
> not? Or is CESL a separate and unique Sign Language? I never heard <br>
> that term before...<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> The reason I said Canadian English. Over the years I have noticed that <br>
> ESL from <st1:country-region w:st="on">England</st1:country-region> at
times, is slightly different, as is the <st1:State w:st="on">Quebec</st1:State>
<br>
> French with the French from <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">France</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> I have been working together with a deaf person who was at Bellville . <br>
> You may remember me talking about him. He use to correct me often by <br>
> saying that a certain word in ASL was different from his language and <br>
> at times became upset about it. Ofcourse I was taking lessons from him <br>
> ! so I had to follow his language.<br>
> I am also working with a group of school teachers. Since deaf children <br>
> are now schooled in the elementary schools, the teachers want to
learn <br>
> to sign in English for the purpose of the children to
learn to read. <br>
> They don't want ASL because of the grammar.<br>
> I had them read the poem and they loved it.<br>
> I did not know what else to call it, so therefore Canadian English.
If <br>
> I am wrong I am open for corrections. Please do so. <br>
> <br>
> I have been following your latest lessons and printed them all out,
so <br>
> when I have time over week-ends I will try it out.<br>
> Thank you so much for that !!!!!<br>
> L.I.F.E.<br>
> Tini.<br>
> <br>
><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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