<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you Charles, you made a lot of
sense</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have made a print-out of Valerie's,
Shane and your messages and I will show it to the teachers
here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I understand Valerie's explanation to called
it "Signed English" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for showing interrest, I really appreciate
the help</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tini.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM
href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">Charles Butler</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 31, 2005 12:29
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [sw-l] Signed English, not
English Sign Language?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Some generally used terms.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>ASL - a signed language with its own grammar, which uses some nouns and
verbs which have Englsh equivalents, but has, as any other language, its own
idioms and expressions that are not "one to one" correspondences.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>PSE - Pidgin Signed English. The words (nouns, verbs,
adjectives) of ASL in a more English grammar order. This does not
include noun endings like "ment" or "ed" but more like "my judge faulty" for
"my judgement is faulty" which is sort of middle ground between ASL and Signed
English.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>SEE - Signed Exact English - This is an invention of the public school
system to teach children who use ASL the words of ASL in English grammar order
complete with English word endings. Because ASL has different words for
"bear" and "bare" (for example) it really does require a knowledge of both
languages for "meaning". They fingerspell "ed" or "s" or "the" or lots
of the other little words that make English verbs make sense. "Have" (as
the helping verb), I have told you so (meaning past tense) is often signed
with "have" (possession) sign from ASL, so there is much confusion on a
grammatical level. I am NOT an expert in SEE.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think it is likely, Tini, that you are using some variant of PSE
because you don't use all the little "particles" that make English grammar
English, but signs in English grammar order. I tend to use SW in that
way myself, with sometimes leaning more toward ASL and sometimes more toward
SEE depending on the audience. Some late-life learning users of Signed
Language have more English grammar, some less. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Make sense?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Charles Butler</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Valerie Sutton <sutton@signwriting.org></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">SignWriting
List<BR>January 30, 2005<BR><BR>Hello Everyone and Tini -<BR>I am no expert,
but I thought that when you are signing in English word <BR>order, that that
is called Signed English. Not English Sign Language, <BR>which would mean a
dialect of British Sign Language to me! But it is <BR>not for me to say.
Here in the US, ESL stands for ...English as a <BR>Second Language.. and
there are ESL teachers who teach English to <BR>native Spanish
speakers...smile...It is ok, Tini - If it is not true <BR>ASL it is good
that you have at least differentiated from that...Val
<BR>;-)<BR><BR>---------------------------<BR><BR>On Jan 30, 2005, at 12:03
PM, Tini Pel wrote:<BR><BR>> Hello Valerie,<BR>> <BR>> Thank
you for the compliments and mentioning on the list about the
<BR>> poem. It has been a long time since I did Sign Writing a poem. It
made <BR>>! ; me sit with my dictionary again, which was a very good
exercise.<BR>> I am still working on your family poem off and on. But I
will <BR>> eventually get it.<BR>> <BR>> You wrote:<BR>> I
have a question about your term CESL...for <BR>>
Canadian-English-Sign-Language...That is usually called ASL, is it <BR>>
not? Or is CESL a separate and unique Sign Language? I never heard <BR>>
that term before...<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The reason I said
Canadian English. Over the years I have noticed that <BR>> ESL from
England at times, is slightly different, as is the Quebec <BR>>
French with the French from France<BR>> I have been working together with
a deaf person who was at Bellville . <BR>> You may remember
me talking about him. He use to correct me often by <BR>> saying
that a certain word in ASL was different from his language and <BR>> at
times became upset about it. Ofcourse I was taking lessons from him <BR>>
! so I had to follow his language.<BR>> I am also working with a group of
school teachers. Since deaf children <BR>> are now schooled in the
elementary schools, the teachers want to learn <BR>> to sign in
English for the purpose of the children to learn to read.
<BR>> They don't want ASL because of the grammar.<BR>> I had them
read the poem and they loved it.<BR>> I did not know what else to
call it, so therefore Canadian English. If <BR>> I am wrong I am open for
corrections. Please do so. <BR>> <BR>> I have been
following your latest lessons and printed them all out, so <BR>>
when I have time over week-ends I will try it out.<BR>> Thank you so much
for that !!!!!<BR>> L.I.F.E.<BR>> Tini.<BR>>
<BR>><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>