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<DIV>03/06/05</DIV>
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<DIV>HI val and others that are part of this discussion.</DIV>
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<DIV>Thanks for the explanation of the line. me just learning, it looked like it was taken from above. The hands are palm-down, etc . However, what is the view here. as if I sign it, or I watch a person signing it?</DIV>
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<DIV>about this underlining:</DIV>
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<DIV>Is there a need to show Deaf people what a "proper noun" is ? Until today I didn't realise that there was a "proper noun", does that mean there are improper nouns?</DIV>
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<DIV>In english we capitalise the days of the week Monday, Tuesday etc. So are these proper nouns? </DIV>
<DIV>In Dutch we don't capitalise the days of the week. </DIV>
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<DIV>So when I learned English in Holland it was explained to me, that these have capitals. Oh. I remembered and wrote them in capitals. In Dutch we didn't start to write them in capitals to learn the English. We learned that names of places in Dutch are capitals. oh. and we did that. So when I see the sign for Australia, I know that this word has a capital first letter. I never knew that this was a "proper noun" nor that even these things need to be highlighted for the Deaf children. </DIV>
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<DIV>and on the subject of mundbilder. </DIV>
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<DIV>This is ofcourse my opinion and I realise that stefan works very hard with his Deaf children and really loves his work, and evidently has some succes, otherwise he wouldn't persevere.</DIV>
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<DIV>Stefan, you are saying that a deaf person knows what the sign is, but has to learn the lip patterns to know the German word that relates to the sign?</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>Look at these sentences:</DIV>
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<DIV>What is that big loud noise?</DIV>
<DIV>What is that pig outdoors?</DIV>
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<DIV>Same lip patterns, different words.</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>through</DIV>
<DIV>true</DIV>
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<DIV>thus</DIV>
<DIV>does</DIV>
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<DIV>weather</DIV>
<DIV>whether</DIV>
<DIV>wether</DIV>
<DIV>(meanings below)</DIV>
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<DIV>Same lip patterns, different words.</DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>Whether the wethers go out in the weather depends on the weather....</DIV>
<DIV>I had to learn this sentence at school.</DIV>
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<DIV>weather = </DIV>
<DIV>Noun.1. the meteorological conditions: temperature and wind and clouds and precipitation; "they were hoping for good weather"; "every day we have weather conditions and yesterday was no exception"</DIV>
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<DIV>Verb.<BR>1. face or endure with courage; "She braved the elements"</DIV>
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<DIV>2. cause to slope</DIV>
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<DIV>3. sail to the windward of</DIV>
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<DIV>4. change under the action or influence of the weather; "A weathered old hut"</DIV>
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<DIV>Adjective.<BR>1. towards the side exposed to wind<BR></DIV>
<DIV>whether = </DIV>
<DIV>Conjunction. 1. to offer another option, alternative ( It depends on whether we can make it or not.)<BR></DIV>
<DIV>wether = </DIV>
<DIV>male sheep (desexed)</DIV>
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<DIV>I am sure that you linguistics can add to this list.</DIV>
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<DIV>So how do the Deaf or anybody know how to write it, if it has the same lippattern?</DIV>
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<DIV>Here in Australia, most Deaf are aware that one sign, can have different meanings in English, as an English word can have different signs in Auslan. They are also able to spell these words correctly, without mundbilder, even without sign writing.....</DIV>
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<DIV>Just a suggestion: Why not explain that a sign can have the folowing different German words, and as part of learning German and its Grammar explain where what word is used? This would be the same as you would teach French, or Dutch or English, Latin to either hearing or deaf students. </DIV>
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<DIV>Maybe we can have a look how L'epee used to do this in France (about 17 century). HIs Deaf pupils became Teachers of the Deaf, and other educated jobs. One of the things they had to learn was French and Latin, so he could explain the finer points of the Roman Catholic Faith. no mundbilder, nor signwriting then...</DIV>
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<DIV>L'epee and his fellow teachers used the Language of the Deaf (Today would be called French Sign Language) and tought the Deaf everything using their native language. To teach French I believe he created signs for those French words that were necessary for proper grammar(Today that would be called Signed French). However, he only used this to teach the reading and writing of French. For example if he quoted the bible he would sign that in Signed French, but to explain what the passage was about,or why the French put it this way, he would explain that in French Sign Language.</DIV>
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<DIV>In Australia at last they are working on doing the same for the Deaf here: Using Auslan intepreters/Teacher's Aids for everything, but to quote English they use Sign English..... </DIV>
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<DIV>I am not critisizing your hard work, but maybe you need to give the Deaf children a little more credit. For example my wife is Deaf and her education was oral/aural. When she was younger she would be classed as Hearing Impaired, other countries call this Hard of Hearing. In the teenage years her hearing went back wards until she is now Profoundly Deaf. She did do all right with hearing aids and lipreading at the Primary school, but it was hopeless at the HIgh School. In the primary school there was one teacher for the whole year and this teacher would take the time to sit next to her to explain things one-to-one. In High school was one teacher per subject, with no private one-to-one. Hence learning to lipread each teacher was impossible and thus learning anything else was also not possible. </DIV>
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<DIV>She knew some Sign English, through some association with other Deaf. We got married and together we learned Auslan. Since then her English has improved out-of sight (=very much), as is her general knowledge from fixing cars to politics, because I am able to explain why/what etc of the silly English Language, which has so many letters in words that are not spoken (through is an example, only hear "thru"), also the many double meanings that make "hearing jokes" funny.</DIV>
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<DIV>We have a Australian saying: "We are flat out as a lizard drinking". Nearly impossible to explain to those Deaf that do not realise the many meanings of words. "flat out" means very busy. a lizard drinks while he is flat on the ground to reach the water. The combination of this is the above saying.</DIV>
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<DIV>The point I am making is that Deaf can learn those things without going through things like "mundbilder" or underlining "proper nouns".. I realise you do this with the best of intentions, but I also feel that you are "creating a rod for your own back", that is, creating more work then is necessary.</DIV>
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<DIV>Antony 8-))</DIV>
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<DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>From:</B></I> <A href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">Valerie Sutton</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Date:</B></I> 06/03/05 02:42:07</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>To:</B></I> <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><I><B>Subject:</B></I> Re: [sw-l] Re: AUSTRALIA Sign for Australia - black line etc</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>SignWriting List
<DIV>June 2, 2005</DIV>
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<DIV>Antony Daamen wrote:
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times">Lucina the black line it "the body" of the signer as seen from the top. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: Times">Stefan I notice that you draw the sign from the top? why that way? will readers of the sign realise it is from the top? Later I will practice more.</SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>No Antony. That is a misunderstanding. I do not believe that Stefan was writing the shoulders in these signs. He was underlining nouns, I believe, for his Deaf children...They are not shoulders from the overhead view...Am I wrong, Stefan?</DIV>
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<DIV>None of these signs, in Stefan's example, needs to be seen from overhead...</DIV>
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