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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Charles,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Here
we used this sign to </span></font><font color=navy><span lang=EN-US
style='color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>horse-drawn carts and carriages (<span
class=SpellE>carroça</span>), see <span class=SpellE>carroça</span> had a mouth
like a “kiss”. The “horse” sign is essential to compose
understanding of sign. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><img
width=181 height=125 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.jpg@01C577F4.7DEC2240"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>But
your composing is good !<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>Sergio<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Mensagem original-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>De:</span></b> owner-sw-l@majordomo.<span
class=GramE>valenciacc</span>.<span class=GramE>edu</span>
[mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Em
nome de </span></b>Charles Butler<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Enviada em:</span></b> quarta-feira, 22 de
junho de 2005 20:30<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Para:</span></b> sw-l@majordomo.<span
class=GramE>valenciacc</span>.<span class=GramE>edu</span><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Assunto:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] carroca,
ajuda-me brasilieros e brasileiras</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><img width=66 height=78
id="_x0000_i1025" src="http://signbank.org/signpuddle/sgn-BR/dict/sl/frio.png"
alt=frio align=middle border=0>frio (<span class=SpellE>cold</span>) <img
width=67 height=78 id="_x0000_i1026"
src="http://signbank.org/signpuddle/sgn-BR/dict/sl/verde.png" alt=verde
align=middle border=0>verde (cor das plantas) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US'>Hello Ingvald, Bill, Stefan & others,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US'>Yes, Libras does use facial expressions as a distinguishing
characteristic. Note the minimal pair above. Frio and verde differ,
essentially, by a facial expression of chattering teeth. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US'>Not sure if carroca has a tongue click or not, will have to ask my
colleagues in Brazil.<br>
<br>
</span><b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Ingvild Roald
<iroald@HOTMAIL.COM></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-language:EN-US'>In the Norwegian
SL, the normal sign for 'drive' is like 'drive a car', but <br>
here in Bergen, the local sign is like your "carroça"<br>
<br>
Ingvild<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>From: "Bill Reese" <br>
<WREESE01@TAMPABAY.RR.COM>>Reply-To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>
>To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>
>Subject: Re: [sw-l] 75 symbols in ASL<br>
>Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 09:48:51 -0400<br>
><br>
>Charles, your sign<br>
>carroça<br>
><br>
>When I duplicated this, I automatically made clicking sound movement used <br>
>to get the attention of horses along with the movement of the reins. Like <br>
>the old westerns' "Giddyup". Does Libras use facial movements
similar to <br>
>Stefan's Mundbildschrift?<br>
><br>
>Bill<br>
><br>
><br>
>Charles Butler wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>> I just added this word to the ASL SignPuddle for "open newsp!
aper". I <br>
>>pulled it from Goldilocks and the Three Bears as I'm not sure that all
the <br>
>>words in Goldilocks have been systematically added to SignPuddle. Until
<br>
>>we have a good translation program from whatever Goldilocks and the
other <br>
>>stories are set in, moving all signs over at once will be a challenge.<br>
>> By the current frequency chart, there are 75 symbols being used in ASL,
<br>
>>though with a few, we'd really have to have a strong consensus that in <br>
>>fact they are used by more than single individuals (several are from
name <br>
>>signs). We definitely should feel like Noah Webster. An additional
note. <br>
>> Working in two signed languages (ASL & Libras), I often look at
one <br>
>>language or the other to see if the other language has the same
handshape <br>
>>being used, even in different words. Two handshapes from the seminal
work <br>
>>of the SignNet Project in Porto Alegre and Pelotas, Brazil while I was <br>
>>working there with Marianne Stumpf come to mind.<br>
>> This is the sign for "noiva" (fiancee) in Libras. The right
hand ring <br>
>>finger is held up by the thumb to display an engagement ring. This is a
<br>
>>"single instance" use of this handshape in all the current
research in <br>
>>Libras which was discovered by the SignNet Project team in Porto Alegre
in <br>
>>the process of translating "SignWriting for Everyday Use"
into Brazilian <br>
>>Portuguese with Libras examples which I had the honor to edit.<br>
>> The second handshape is the "carroça" handshape, which I
found by <br>
>>inquiry quite by accident. In most major cities of Brazil there are
still <br>
>>horse-drawn carts and carriages (carroça). I asked what the sign was
for <br>
>>the cart, and this was the sign that was given.<br>
>> carroça<br>
>>As this handshape had not yet been used in the Libras examples,! I was <br>
>>rather pleased that I had been a part of the team when it was folded
into <br>
>>the workbook.<br>
>> I want to make a practice of carrying 3x5 cards to record ASL and
Libras <br>
>>examples to ensure that our Puddle Dictionaries are always growing.<br>
>> Well wishes to all.<br>
>> Charles Butler<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>Charles Butler <CHAZZER3332000@YAHOO.COM>wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Comment on .lojban.<br>
>><br>
>> The difficulty I have with lojban, having actually<br>
>> looked into it as an artificial language construct, is<br>
>> that it uses punctuation marks as letters, so it<br>
>> actually looks ugly on the page. When every five<br>
>> letters or so is a "." being used as a schwa or an
"h"<br>
>> it is really jarring. Far from being something I would<br>
>> easily use and learn, as some fewer than 1,000 people<br>
>> are fluent in the language, it fails for me becau! se it<br>
>> fails aesthetically. Korean, in contrast, created an<br>
>> alphabet from pictures that come out resembling<br>
>> Chinese characters from a distance but looking<br>
>> entirely different as a featural alphabet when<br>
>> examined. IMVHO, art must be a part of an alphabet,<br>
>> or it's going to repel rather than attract.<br>
>><br>
>> Charles Butler<br>
>><br>
>> --- Steve Slevinski wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> > Hi Stuart,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I appreciate your opinion and point of view. This is<br>
>> > one of the great<br>
>> > features of SignWriting. It is a big tent idea. Val<br>
>> > has invited us all<br>
>> > to come in and play around. It is a process of<br>
>> > discovery. Different<br>
>> > perspectives help us learn and grow. I only hope<br>
>> > that I do more good<br>
>> > than harm.<br>
>> ><br>
>> >! I understand that linguists need special terms. They<br>
>> > need to analyze and<br>
>> > discuss and argue about what is happening in<br>
>> > language. I didn't mean to<br>
>> > imply that specialized jargon should be thrown out.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Upon reflection, my email was about talking to<br>
>> > various audiences that<br>
>> > need to learn more about sign language in general<br>
>> > and SignWriting in<br>
>> > particular.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The primary audience I'm concerned about is native<br>
>> > signers. We need to<br>
>> > encourage native signers to learn about SignWriting<br>
>> > and to ! start<br>
>> > writing. I'm hoping that I can convince native<br>
>> > signers to write lengthy<br>
>> > documents using SignPuddle 2 (when it's ready). If<br>
>> > they do, SignPuddle<br>
>> > will prove the superi! ority of SignWriting for all<br>
>> > time and it will be<br>
>> > embraced by Deaf culture. I say that because<br>
>> > SignPuddle will not tell<br>
>> > Deaf what sign language is, it will show Deaf how<br>
>> > sign language is<br>
>> > written by Deaf writers. The ASL hand-shape alphabet<br>
>> > has 74 symbols not<br>
>> > because of my authority, but because that's the<br>
>> > symbols that writers are<br>
>> > using. SignPuddle is about reflecting language, not<br>
>> > dictating language.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The secondary audience (for me anyway) is people<br>
>> > with deep pockets.<br>
>> > Philanthropy is very scarce for sign language<br>
>> > projects. Even more scarce<br>
>> > for SignWriting projects. Small grants are a problem<br>
>> > for most projects<br>
>> > that ! I know of. There's not enough to go around.<br>
>&! gt; ><br>
>> > For people with deep pockets, you have about 1<br>
>> > minute to generate<br>
>> > sufficient interest so that they take the time to<br>
>> > consider your<br>
>> > proposition. Realistically, you have about 10<br>
>> > seconds to get them<br>
>> > interested enough to listen to the next 50 seconds<br>
>> > differently.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Neither of these audience is interested in the<br>
>> > technical jargon of<br>
>> > programmers or linguists. If you use words they<br>
>> > don't immediately<br>
>> > understand, you've lost their interest. I'm sure you<br>
>> > could create an<br>
>> > hour long presentation about the value of sign<br>
>> > language and the<br>
>> > importance of SignWriting, but if you confuse them<br>
>> > with jargon and don't<br>
>> > immediately capture their interest, you will be<br>
>> > wasting your time and<br>
>> > theirs.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > And I'm still upset about the spoken language bias<br>
>> > inh! erent in most<br>
>> > languages. Even the artificial language "Lojban" has<br>
>> > a bias against<br>
>> > signed languages. And the funny thing is that Lojban<br>
>> > was created to<br>
>> > eliminate cultural bias from language and test a<br>
>> > variation of the<br>
>> > Sapir-Worf hypothesis. However, Lojban is still in<br>
>> > development so I need<br>
>> > to have a chat with the organizing committee. I'll<br>
>> > tell you how it goes<br>
>> > later.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -Steve<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Stuart Thiessen wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > > Hi Steve!<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > I understand what you are trying to express.<br>
>! ;> > However, like any field<br>
>> > > of expertise, it contains technical terms to help<br>
>> > the specialists of<br>
>> > > the field understand exactly what they mean.<br>
>> > Computer programmers have<br>
>> > > their technical jargon, and so do linguists. I<br>
>> > don't agree that we<br>
>> > > need to throw out all the technical terms to<br>
>> > "reduce bias." If one<br>
>> > > reviews the research being done in sign languages,<br>
>> > it is easily<br>
>> > > apparent that there is a lot to learn about our<br>
>> > ability to learn<br>
>> > > language through either modality (speech or sign).<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Also, like any specialists, we need to consider<br>
>> > our audience and the<br>
>> > > purpose of our discussion. If we are discussing<br>
>> > the proper linguistic<br>
>>! ; > > definition of some aspect of sign languages, we<br>
>> > should use the proper<br>
>> > > terms. If we are only have a "lay" discussion of<br>
>> > the topic, then using<br>
>> > > "lay" terms is appropriate.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > In my case, I prefer the technical term "featural"<br>
>> > to describe what<br>
>> > > kind of writing system SignWriting is. To me, it<br>
>> > is the most accurate<br>
>> > > term available for the writing system. For "lay"<br>
>> > terms, an alphabet<br>
>> > &g! t; may be one way to describe it, but it is not<br>
>> > necessarily the best<br>
>> > > technical term. If we explain the terms then it<br>
>> > has meaning. For<br>
>> > > hearing, once they know that the Korean writing<br>
>> > system is similiar in<br>
>> > > approach as SignWriting (because the symbols in<br>
>> > the Korean system<br>
>> > > correspond with how the sounds are produced), then<br>
>> > that helps them to<br>
>> > > see that SW isn't so strange after all. For ASL<br>
>> > deaf, I tend to point<br>
>> > > out some of the non-manual markers we tend to use<br>
>> > in our<br>
>> > > conversations. I explain how those can be included<br>
>> > in our writing ...<br>
>> > > oh, yeah and by the way, we can write the signs<br>
>> > clearly too ;) . Most<br>
>> > > alphabets, syllabaries, abjads, etc. are symbols<br>
>> > that represent the<br>
>> > > final product of the articulators. SignWriting<br>
>> > goes one level deeper<br>
>> > > and actually! shows the articulators in motion (in<br>
>> > a manner of<br>
>> > > speaking). So does Korean as I understand it or at<br>
>> > least that ! is the<br>
>> > > closest analogy we have from spoken languages.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > I'm less inclined to "throw out the technical<br>
>> > terms". I think it is<br>
>> > > better for us to help clarify the terms and<br>
>> > illustrate where sign<br>
>> > > languages are similar or different than spoken<br>
>> > languages. Over time,<br>
>> > > the bias will disappear. If one studies the<br>
>> > professional literature on<br>
>> > > sign languages, then it is next to impossible that<br>
>> > they can truly<br>
>> > > retain the bias against sign languages. And if<br>
>> > they have the bias<br>
>> > > anyway, changing the wiktionary isn't going to do<br>
>> > a whole lot to<br>
>> > > change things in my opinion. Personally, the more<br>
>> > we use SignWriting<br>
>> > > to describe sign la! nguages and the linguistic<br>
>> > properties of sign<br>
>> > > languages _and_ to develop literature in our sign<br>
>> > languages, the more<br>
>> > > people will begin to see the value of both sign<br>
>> > languages in general<br>
>> > > and SignWriting as a system to record sign<br>
>> > languages. When they see<br>
>> > > our professional discussions of the terms, then<br>
>> > they will be more<br>
>> > > inclined to listen because we are pointing out<br>
>> > clarifications in how<br>
>> > > they use their terms rather than simply throwing<br>
>> > out the words because<br>
>> > > we don't like the meaning they attach to those<br>
>> > technical terms.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > But again that's my opinion. ;)<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Stuart<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > On Jun 21, 2! 005, at 18:53, Steve Slevinski wrote:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Hi all,<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > I love the term IMWA for many reasons. I'm a<br>
>> > self proclaimed IMWA<br>
>> > > snob.! The IMWA is a true alphabet even though<br>
>> > the<br>
>> === message truncated ===<br>
>><br>
>><br>
<br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'>
<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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