<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<DIV>August 21, 2005</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Hello Stefan!</DIV><DIV>Many thanks for this insightful email message...Before I answer your message below (see below), I want to clear up the terminology for all of you...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><DIV><DIV>Charles Butler wrote:</DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV>i see GebaerdenSchrift as very parallel to Cued Speech. With a handful of handshapes, HoH people are helped to learn spoken language fairly accurately by being able to divide sounds on the face by articulators that don't appear on the face. Best example is that the words "red" and "green" look exactly the same on the face to a hard-of-hearing person, but their internal articulators (inside the mouth) are different.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Val answered...</DIV><DIV>Thanks for this message above, Charles...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>It is my understanding, that the word GebaerdenSchrift means SignWriting in German...So GebaerdenSchrift (SignWriting) cannot be compared to Cued Speech! Ha!...I know you didn't mean that (grin ;-))</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I believe this is the correct terminology?...Is this correct, Stefan? ;-)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>GebaerdenSchrift....means SignWriting in German.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Mundbilder (I have just learned by reading Stefan's message below) means the mouth movements that are done as a natural part of signed languages</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Mundbildschrift (I believe) means the writing of mouth articulation when speaking German words, that assists Deaf students to be able to speak words better...but there are no handshapes involved like Cued Speech at all...just writing the way the mouth looks when you speak...so it is quite different than Cued Speech I believe, which is not written?...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>OK...so now...answers below from me too...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"> <DIV><B><I>Stefan Wöhrmann <<A href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE">stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE</A>></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Hi Valerie and list - <BR><BR>no (smile) it is not possible to learn German words through the Mundbilder<BR>in GebaerdenSchrift. There are many reasons for that. The most important<BR>reason is that there is no distinct match between a given sound of German<BR>langauge and a specific Mundbild in GebaerdenSchrift. <BR><BR>But there is another notation system called "Mundbildschrift" - <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Really! I didn't realize there was a difference between the term Mundbilder and Mundbildschrift!...Thanks for informing me...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>The difference between these two system is somewhat complicated. <BR><BR>In my "Handbuch zur GebaerdenSchrift" there is a whole chapter only about<BR>this aspect. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>Ha! I need to read your wonderful new book!! I am glad you explained it there...and here too!</DIV><DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>Since SL does not care about sound and voice - but depends on looking at the<BR>hands, body a n d mouth these "Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift" just<BR>give some impressions about the voiceless (silent) mouth movements while<BR>somebody is performing a sign. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>Of course. So your term Mundbilder means Facial Expressions or Mouth Movements in our English terminology. I never use the word Pictures in English, since that is looked-down on, in my culture, as unsophisticated, by some linguists here. Since we have a real writing system, I just say "writing Mouth Movements"...but leave the word picture out of it...but I understand fully what you mean! And I am sure the term pictures is perfect in Germany...</DIV><DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>A good example may be the video of "skola" we discus! sed in detail - smile. <BR><BR>Just look at the mouth of the performer. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>I haven't been able to view the videotape, since I am only setup for quicktime right now...I have to get my avi viewer up and running...<BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>Well - the "internal point of view" tells the scribe that this sign stems<BR>from Czech SL so he is going to move his lipse like saying the word "SH" "C"<BR>"O - like in all" "L" and "A" <BR><BR>In fact you can't identify all these distinct "stills" and of course -<BR>Charles - it has something to do with your knowledge in before - <BR><BR>But nevertheless it is up to the skilled SignWriting scribe to accept a<BR>performance just as it is - or to neglect or to suppress some of the<BR>information that is offered. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Yes. Sure. Knowing the sign in advance helps!</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>Contrary to that the "Mundbildschrift" is a system that supports<BR>articulation. But this is not a question most people of the SW - list are<BR>interested in. It is not a matter of SW but much more a typical educational<BR>matter if teacher try to support deaf children to improve articulation. If<BR>so - "Mundbildschrift" turns ot to become a wonderful support. </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><DIV>OK. Well...Mundbildschrift is not SignWriting...because it is not writing signed languages, but Mundbilder (in German) are a part of SignWriting...I understand (I hope! ;-)</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>BUT....Mundbildschrift is using symbols from the general Sutton Movement Writing system, and then you applied those symbols to a specific use...what I used to call Speech Writing... what you call MundbildSchrift...and that is wonderful!</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>So I still have this question...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>1. Since Mundbildschrift supports articulation, could I learn how to pronounce German words from it, as a foreigner to the spoken language?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>2. When you read a sign in the German SignPuddle...a sign that has a lot of Mouth Movement symbols from SignWriting on top of the sign...are we reading Mundbilder, or Mundbildschrift?</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>smile...</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I will change the subject soon...I just want to learn how to read your German Sign email - that is all! I am enjoying learning to read German signs!</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Val ;-)</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>