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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hello Charles and list,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I really liked your thoughts on the issue.
FSL is now the 4<sup>th</sup> sign language that I am learning (please don’t
think that I really know all four, but at least in Romanian and FSL I can get
by without help). What I found in all four languages is that even when I know
them quite well there are many situations where I think that I know exactly how
the sign is used. Then some deaf people will come and point out that I am doing
it wrong. Funny, to me their “correction” often looks exactly the
same as what I am doing…This has happened even more often since using SW,
because now I need to write down exactly what I <span class=GramE>see </span></span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:Arial;mso-hansi-font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:
Arial;color:navy;mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings'><span
style='mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But as you say, Charles, out <span
class=SpellE>siders</span> can be very helpful in asking questions or in
helping with technical aspects of SW – I am just now learning a lot from
these “outsiders”, thanks Stefan and Val.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I really enjoy the many different aspects
of Sign Languages we get to discuss, so many things we would not think of just
on our own! Thank you all!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Nana<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Charles Butler<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sonntag, 21. August 2005
23:06<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: AW: [sw-l] CZJ -
Czech sign language: SKOLA (school) - video</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think our disagreement on both hand shape and
essential movement is caused by internal versus external viewpoints.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The original writer is Czech and knows the sign and
can watch both the video and his own arms and sees an essential turning of
the wrist as well as a movement, and knows the handshape used.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>An external party, speaking from a different language,
who does not know the sign in everyday use in Czech, can, at the most, take a
guess from the video.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Native signers of a language know best, though
non-native speakers can certainly help edit what they write. I acted as
an editor in Libras, a language I am learning, while in Brazil, and often had
to stop, look at what a native signer had written, and duplicate it carefully
on my hands before I would rewrite it, but only with a very careful discussion
with the signer to ensure that what I saw was what was being signed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>This is my word of caution on our discussions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If the handshape that is being discussed is a bent
hand, then the movement is a bent hand. If a viewer sees a flat hand with
the back of the hand to the right, they are seeing the same orientation, but
disagreeing on the handshape. The query then becomes, is this a critical
difference in the language of discussion". That can then become
quite productive as a separate discussion. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Various layers of linguistic parsing can result, as is
happening on this list. However, we should always defer to the native
signer of his or her own language as the final authority on what handshape is
actually being used.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Charles<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Stefan Wöhrmann
<stefanwoehrmann@GEBAERDENSCHRIFT.DE></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hi Honza, Tomas, Shane, Valerie, Charles ... sw -list<br>
<br>
<br>
today I looked for the fist time at this "skola -video" - <br>
<br>
There are - as always many more variations how to write the sign in SW. <br>
<br>
Looking at Shane's comment ("crap and shit" )- I had to smile. <br>
<br>
Well if you would accept that the signer is actually doing a lot with his<br>
mouth - (smile) you would not identify this sign as " a total crap"
-- or<br>
"total shit" - <br>
<br>
Dr Penny Boyes Braem from Switzerland made me very attentive to these<br>
"Mundbilder" <br>
<br>
So obviously the sign that is shown in this video is a combination of kind<br>
of "voiceless articulation movements" which can be written with my<br>
Mundbildschrift - <br>
<br>
<br>
looking at the hand and at the moovement I can imagine a different spelling<br>
... <br>
<br>
So it depends who should get the information. Students who are on ! their way<br>
to use bilingual materials in order to develop Spoken Language skills will<br>
definitely take advantage out of a very detailed spelling - .<br>
<br>
Once they know the terms in SL and Spoken Languages a less detailed<br>
Mundbildschrift would do it - if there are no similar signs - which can lead<br>
to confusion. But that depends on the scribes knowledge of the given SL and<br>
his intentions. <br>
<br>
<br>
Stefan ;-)) <br>
<br>
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>
Von: owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>
[mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Valerie Sutton<br>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 18. August 2005 23:26<br>
An: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] CZJ - Czech sign language: SKOLA (school) - video<br>
<br>
SignWriting List<br>
August 18, 2005<br>
<br>
Shane Ó hEorpa wrote:<br>
> In British Sign Language, that sign mean "a total crap" or
"a total <br>
> shit" if<br>
> done once - if twice, it mean "it is rubbish" or "it is
crap"<br>
<br>
! Great. This means that you can copy the sign for Skola in the Czech <br>
SignPuddle and paste it into the BSL SignPuddle, and change the name <br>
of the sign, and you don't have to re-write it! That will add one <br>
more sign to the BSL SignPuddle! Val ;-)<br>
<br>
PS. List members...If you need instructions on how to paste signs <br>
from one SignPuddle to another, just ask me!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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