<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">Charles<DIV>wow! this message is quite agressive!<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I don't understand... </DIV><DIV>everyone is free to write in english (or in any other language) making errors if that's what they want .... </DIV><DIV>BUT if you try to write in a correct english... you've got to follow rules...( orthographic rules, grammatical rules, etc...) </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>(I'm probably making lots of errors writing this message, and I don't care, because I don't expect anyone to correct me.... because it's not the aim of this message.... hope you get what I mean)... it's not the same when I ask a question on sign notation on this list!!!</DIV><DIV>I expect people to correct me if I'm making errors... I'm here to learn!</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><SPAN class="Apple-style-span">In her message Val just explained how you're <B>supposed to</B> write this sign name in SignWriting... what's wrong with this??</SPAN></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>you can chose to write signs in a wrong mode if you feel that it feels better.... but ... it wil be wrong. If that's the way you want it... FINE!</DIV><DIV>why being so agressive with people who try to increase their writing skills... and write correctly some difficult signs??</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>just my 2 cents</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Anny</DIV><DIV><DIV><DIV><DIV>Le 1 mai 07 à 17:56, Charles Butler a écrit :</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Where is there room for style and feel? <BR><BR>From a feeling point of view, her name sign looks like the K is resting on the arm, and then the J hand feels as if it goes straight down and then turns toward the chest. <BR><BR>If one were to take the arm away, it is not produced the same way, as that becomes fingerspelling with the J upright and then turning down. <BR><BR>With the arm, the production changes appearance as a brush of the bottom of the little finger against the arm, which does not feel like PALM Down but simply straight down. <BR><BR>The exact palm facing may be palm down, but that is not how it "feels". It "feels" like the K is upright and the J is pointing downward, and it is elegantly written in a shorthand kind of way. The arrowhead would change to a single line with the arrow moving toward one and up, but the feel is not Parallel to the Arm, but straight down. <BR><BR>Doesn't the user of the name have the right to put any Style and Feel into how they produce a sign? One can choose whether thumb or little finger is being moved, why not which orientation is the right "feel" for the sign?<BR><BR><BR><B><I>Valerie Sutton <<A href="mailto:signwriting@MAC.COM">signwriting@MAC.COM</A>></I></B> wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> Stefan is correct, Charles...This sign name for Kelly Jo needs to be <BR>discussed a little...<BR><BR>I would probably write it this way:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Let's discuss this original writing:<BR><BR><BR>I certainly can see why this was hard to write! and I also understand <BR>that we need to review the Rotation symbols for everyone's sake...<BR><BR><BR>First look at the I hand...it is in this position...<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>That is just physically very hard to do!<BR><BR><BR>And the Rotation Symbol ....<BR><BR>This symbols means the forearm is parallel with the Front Wall and <BR>the thumb rotates back towards the chest:<BR><BR><BR><BR>The way we write the letter KJ without the arm is this way:<BR><BR><BR>The J hand starts with the finger up, and then the arm moves to be <BR>parallel with the Floor and the Rotation itself is down and around...<BR><BR><BR><BR>So this is one suggestion:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>There are other ways too I am sure...we just need to find a better <BR>way with a correct Rotation Symbol and Palm Facing...<BR><BR><BR>Val ;-)<BR><BR>--------<BR><BR><BR><BR>On May 1, 2007, at 5:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:<BR><BR>> I find this easy to read, the brush contact is the equivalent of a <BR>> contact star, and the movement is placed for reading convenience <BR>> below the arm line. That's how I would write an ASL "J" that <BR>> brushed the arm, else the movement would put the handshape too far <BR>> visually from the arm.<BR>><BR>> Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:<BR>> Hi Kelly,<BR>><BR>> well - can you describe how to sign your signname?<BR>><BR>> <463177574000000><BR>><BR>> For some reason I do not know.<BR>><BR>> First part no problem K-hand touches left lower arm ...<BR>><BR>> your rotation arrow describes a movement of the right thumb, right <BR>> lower arm above or below the I-hand ? Now brush contact of the <BR>> little finger – lower arm above the hand ? hm --<BR>><BR>><BR>> Stefan ;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<BR>> Von: owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [<A href="mailto:owner-sw-">mailto:owner-sw-</A> <BR>> <A href="mailto:l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>] Im Auftrag von K.J. Boal<BR>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2007 03:20<BR>> An: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> Betreff: RE: AW: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)<BR>><BR>> Mine looks right!<BR>> KJ<BR>><BR>><BR>> >From: "Stefan Wöhrmann"<BR>> >Reply-To: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> >To: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> >Subject: AW: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)<BR>> >Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 00:19:09 +0200<BR>> ><BR>> >OK - attached you find the first snapshot of a table showing only <BR>> the names<BR>> >of the participants and their signnames - the way I understood <BR>> them, or got<BR>> >them ... ?<BR>> ><BR>> >If everything is ok - if there is no spelling problem I will go <BR>> forward to<BR>> >create a set of TT-Font symbols of these<BR>> ><BR>> >Next message will show the second part of the group<BR>> ><BR>> >(according the rule - one attachment with one message)<BR>> ><BR>> >Stefan ;-)<BR>> ><BR>> >-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<BR>> >Von: <A href="mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> >[<A href="mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">mailto:owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>] Im Auftrag von <BR>> Valerie Sutton<BR>> >Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2007 23:41<BR>> >An: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> >Betreff: [sw-l] Sign Names in SignWriting ;-)<BR>> ><BR>> >SignWriting List<BR>> >April 30, 2007<BR>> ><BR>> >Stefan -<BR>> >Can you show us the sign names that you do have written already, and<BR>> >post them to the List? Then we all can have fun looking at them and<BR>> >checking them ;-)<BR>> ><BR>> >So go right ahead and post them to the List and then we can discuss<BR>> >reading everyone's names together to see if we understand the<BR>> >SignWriting...<BR>> ><BR>> >Thanks for doing this, Stefan...<BR>> ><BR>> >Val ;-)<BR>> ><BR>> >----------<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >On Apr 30, 2007, at 1:45 PM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> > > Hello Jonathan,<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > thanks for your kind words ...<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > well I finished a great table of all the people who showed <BR>> interest<BR>> > > in the handwriting course. – smile –<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > What is missing that we started to write our signnames by hand. My<BR>> > > idea has been to offer to you a TT Font showing your handwriting<BR>> > > and the computerprogram – spelling as you can get with <BR>> SignPuddle –<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Unfortunately we did never come so far to discuss our handwriting<BR>> > > of our signnames. Since it takes me quite a time to create the TT-<BR>> > > Font I really would prefer to do this job on a basis that the<BR>> > > spelling of the signnames are checked by Valerie –<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > What do you think ?<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Nice to read that you are still interested in this job which<BR>> > > already took quite a portion of time and concentration – smile<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > All the best<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Stefan ;-)<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Von: owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [<A href="mailto:owner-sw-">mailto:owner-sw-</A><BR>> > > <A href="mailto:l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>] Im Auftrag von Jonathan<BR>> > > Gesendet: Montag, 30. April 2007 21:07<BR>> > > An: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> > > Betreff: [sw-l] Welcome back Stefan<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Welcome back Stefan!!!<BR>> > ><BR>> > > P.S. Did you finish the Sign names fonts you were working on? Or<BR>> > > did that get put on the back burner now that we aren't currently<BR>> > > any lessons on the list?<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Jonathan<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Hi Valerie, Cherie and listmembers –<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > well I am back online – smile –<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > You folks have been so incredible active! Too many messages – so<BR>> > > that I will need some time to catch up with what is discussed ...<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Looking at your video Cherie – I would write it this way<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > <IMAGE001.JPG><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > All the best<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Stefan<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Von: owner-sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [<A href="mailto:owner-sw-">mailto:owner-sw-</A><BR>> > > <A href="mailto:l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>] Im Auftrag von Cherie Wren<BR>> > > Gesendet: Samstag, 28. April 2007 16:52<BR>> > > An: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> > > Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Shurley 4<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > I always have troubles with the rotations... that is my signing,<BR>> > > not a transcription. The two 'baby x's facing each other, then <BR>> the<BR>> > > right hand twists down twice and the left hand twists up twice<BR>> > > while the palms continue to face each other-- best way I can<BR>> > > describe it in words. Here is a clip.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > ----- Original Message ----<BR>> > > From: "<A href="mailto:adam@frostvillage.com">adam@frostvillage.com</A>" <BR>> > > To: <A href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>> > > Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 1:05:09 AM<BR>> > > Subject: RE: [sw-l] Shurley 4<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Cherie,<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I was just reading your jingle. Very interesting. :-) Very well<BR>> > > written too. They only sign that I had a problem with was (I am<BR>> > > guessing) modify. The way that it was written is the same movement<BR>> > > that would be for a vertical "dead" or "opening the right door<BR>> > > while closing the left door." I took me a few tries of signing it<BR>> > > to see what you were saying. I think that the movement for modify<BR>> > > (at least the way I sign it) is the same as signing class except<BR>> > > the left hand goes the opposite way. I don't know if I am right in<BR>> > > my movement writing, but I was thinking that the movement was<BR>> > > better written this way. But if you are transcribing and the <BR>> person<BR>> > > signed it the way I mentioned before, then keep it. :-)<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Adam<BR>> > ><BR>> > > PS I'll try to get a clip of my signing the two movements as a<BR>> > > picture is worth a thousand words.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Load message into SignText<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Courtesy of SignBank.org<BR>> > ><BR>> > > 337e55242c3367ad66f00b5c9bd745bb = <BR>> 337e55242c3367ad66f00b5c9bd745bb<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?<BR>> > > Check out new cars at Yahoo! Autos.<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > > --<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Jonathan & Yolaine Duncan<BR>> > > 8-) & ;-)<BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >Val ;-)<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >Valerie Sutton<BR>> ><A href="mailto:Sutton@SignWriting.org">Sutton@SignWriting.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> >1. SignWriting<BR>> >Read & Write Sign Languages<BR>> ><A href="http://www.SignWriting.org">http://www.SignWriting.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> >2. SignBank<BR>> >Create Sign Language Databases<BR>> ><A href="http://www.SignBank.org">http://www.SignBank.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> >3. SignPuddle<BR>> >Online Sign Language Community<BR>> ><A href="http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle">http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle</A><BR>> ><BR>> >4. SignWriting List<BR>> >Technical Support: Ask questions to the List<BR>> ><A href="http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist">http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist</A><BR>> ><BR>> >5. DanceWriting<BR>> >Read & Write Dance Movement<BR>> ><A href="http://www.DanceWriting.org">http://www.DanceWriting.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> >6. MovementWriting<BR>> >Read & Write All Body Movement<BR>> ><A href="http://www.MovementWriting.org">http://www.MovementWriting.org</A><BR>> ><BR>> >7. SymbolBank<BR>> >International Movement Writing Alphabet<BR>> ><A href="http://www.MovementWriting.org/symbolbank">http://www.MovementWriting.org/symbolbank</A><BR>> ><BR>> >8. Non-profit Organization<BR>> >Center for Sutton Movement Writing<BR>> ><A href="http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/sponsors">http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/sponsors</A><BR>> ><BR>> >SignWriting Literature Project<BR>> >The DAC, Deaf Action Committee<BR>> >Center For Sutton Movement Writing<BR>> >an educational nonprofit organization<BR>> >P.O. Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038, USA<BR>> >tel 858-456-0098 fax 858-456-0020<BR>> >D-Link Videophone: 66.27.57.178<BR>> >Skype Name: valeriesutton<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>><BR>><BR>> ><< tableofparticipantshandwritingcoursenamesandsignnames1.gif >><BR>><BR>> _________________________________________________________________<BR>> Win a webcam! Nominate your friend’s Windows Live Space in the <BR>> Windows Live<BR>> Spaces Sweetest Space Contest and you both could win!<BR>> <A href="http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/sweetestspace/">http://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/contests/sweetestspace/</A> <BR>> default.aspx<BR>><BR>><BR><BR></IMAGE001.JPG></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod</DIV><DIV>ruelle des chambres chaudes 1</DIV><DIV>1271 Givrins</DIV><DIV>Tel ++41/22.362.52.37</DIV><DIV>Fax ++41/22.362.52.66</DIV><DIV>mail: <A href="mailto:acpg@vtxnet.ch">acpg@vtxnet.ch</A></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN> </DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>