<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi Charles,<br>
I know that WOW doesn't end PALM UP. What I meant was suggestion a
different place to put the line in the flex movement symbol. I had
always been difficult for me to read because the line isn't beside the
wrist as I would've expect it to be. But the "Wrist Movement Symbols"
diagrams that Valerie posted has made it clearer. <br>
Thanks for your comment<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
Charles Butler wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:143547.10362.qm@web43145.mail.sp1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">Jonathan wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
Should be written with all the symbols as <img moz-do-not-send="true"
alt=""
src="http://attach.mud.mail.yahoo.com/us.f431.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=666_26415920_12844342_3071_11071_0_303223_22939_226456361&bodyPart=2.5&YY=42753&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&Idx=0"
height="50" width="197"> which wouldn't be a wrist flex at all but
rather a rotation.<br>
<br>
This isn't the end position that is trying to be shown with a flex
symbol. The hand moves down to a 45 degree angle not onto the PALM UP
plan, think of shaking something off of one's hands, the hands stay
facing the reader, the flex is actually from a straight angle to a 45
degree angle. It truly does stay FACING THE READER not PALM UP.<br>
<br>
Charles<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><i>Jonathan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca"><duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca></a></i></b>
wrote:
<blockquote class="replbq"
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">Hi
list,<br>
Wrist flexes and rotation have been difficult for me up to know. <br>
However the latest discussions here on the list have helped clear a lot
<br>
of things up for me. Though some aspects still elude me. This is what <br>
I have come understand and please feel free to let me know if I am
wrong <br>
or you feel that I am wrong on any of these issues.<br>
<br>
*Rotations*<br>
/General rules/<br>
<br>
1. Rotations have axis-lines around which the hand rotates. The<br>
axis-line goes through the middle finger of the hand. The hand<br>
does not travel around the axis-line as would a normal movement<br>
but rather rotates around it, the axis-line staying static in the<br>
center of the hand.<br>
2. There are two type of axis-lines. The double-lined axis-line<br>
parallel to the wall plane for a hand that is in the wall plane. <br>
The single-lined axis-line is parallel to the floor plane for hand<br>
symbols that are in the floor plane.<br>
3. The rotation arrow is always perpendicular to the axis-line. That<br>
is always around the axis-line.<br>
4. Rotations with an arrowhead on the axis-line can travel up or down<br>
the axis line. Rotations cannot travel in any other direction. <br>
Static axis-lines do not have an arrowhead and do not travel in<br>
any direction whatsoever.<br>
5. The rotation arrow can either represent the curve of the thumb<br>
movement around the axis-line or the curve of the baby finger<br>
movement around the axis-line. /*(I don't know how to distinguish<br>
the two, could someone please help)*/<br>
6. A rotation ALWAYS involves a change of the palm facing if both the<br>
beginning and ending hands where to be written. It however NEVER<br>
changes from one plane to the other. Not only are the beginning<br>
and ending axis-lines are ALWAYS parallel, they are also ALWAYS<br>
lined up.<br>
<br>
/What is confusing about previous explanations/<br>
<br>
1. As Adam has mentioned, _"Right. Which is where the confusion comes<br>
in. The definition of the rotation symbol is that the arm and hand<br>
are on the same line. The sign for wow is not."_ the axis-line of<br>
the hand and the axis-line of the are not always the same. In the<br>
previous explanations they are assumed to be the same . This is<br>
not the case for example if the hand is flexed 90 degrees from the<br>
arm. Contrary to Charles comment, though I didn´t grasp the last<br>
part of his comment, _"Then the definition is wrong. It should<br>
follow the ARM rotation always, that way the movement is<br>
consistent. The arm does not travel which the general travel<br>
implies." _ I think that being that we are interested mainly in<br>
the hand movement and not the arm movement, we should talk about<br>
the axis-line in reference to the hand not the arm.<br>
2. I have yet to understand which rotations represent the baby finger<br>
and which represent the thumb and which should be used when. I see<br>
there is a reference to the Push-Pull Writing Rules in the chapter<br>
Axial Movement in the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook. But which<br>
pages are they on? Please help me on this one.<br>
<br>
<br>
*Wrist Flexes*<br>
/General rules<br>
/<br>
<br>
1. The line going through the middle finger is anchored at the middle<br>
of the wrist line (point of pivot) but describes an arc at the end<br>
of the middle finger.<br>
2. The line through the middle finger is not drawn on the wrist flex<br>
symbol but rather a line cutting the wrist over which the wrist<br>
bends.<br>
3. Generally entails flexing the wrist. Sometimes a rotation of the<br>
wrist if it is already bent in regards to the arm.<br>
4. If the wrist flex movement is in the same plane as the hand, there<br>
is no change in palm facing if the beginning and ending hands are<br>
written. If the wrist flex movement changes from one plane to the<br>
other there is change in palm facing.<br>
5. The beginning and ending lines through the middle finger are NEVER<br>
parallel that is never along the same line. Both line ALWAYS have<br>
a common point at the middle of the wrist.<br>
<br>
/What is confusing about previous explanations/<br>
<br>
1. What the line represents in the flex movement symbol. Before, I<br>
could never figure out which way to flop the hand. It seemed<br>
logical to me at the time to try and flop the hand around the<br>
line. Which sometimes made the sign nonsensical. Valerie wrote<br>
_"In Wrist Flexes, the wrist is cut by a line, which is the axis...so<br>
the line does not represent the forearm...it is an imaginary line<br>
cutting the wrist...I was wrong before..."_ I believe this means<br>
like cutting the wrist off the line separating the hand from the<br>
forearm. Yes makes perfect sense for "Yes-Yes". But some signs<br>
just don't make sense if this is the case. <br>
<br>
For example: If Yes-Yes is actually <br>
<br>
<br>
Then where the wrist line is not anywhere close to the wrist. <br>
<br>
<br>
Should be written with all the symbols as which wouldn't be a wrist
flex <br>
at all but rather a rotation.<br>
<br>
It seems to me that it would make more sense if it was written as But <br>
we don't have this a wrist flex symbol. At least I don't think so.<br>
This is why it is so hard to define this line. It's mean one thing for <br>
Yes-Yes sign but doesn't represent anything for the Wow sign except
that <br>
the symbol is a wrist flex.<br>
<br>
<br>
*<br>
Special cases*<br>
When there is a rotation and a wrist flex simultaneously.<br>
Could also be written but is much harder to read than just writing the <br>
beginning and ending hands.<br>
<br>
<br>
Looking forward to all of your comments.<br>
<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>