<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<div>May 15, 2008</div><div><br></div><div>Hello Hasna and Charles -</div><div>Many thanks for your input, Charles...we are thinking the same ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>Hasna - regarding programming versus the "real world of signing"...there is no question they are two different worlds, and of course it is hard to imagine translating between a spoken language like French or English, which uses the Roman alphabet that is written horizontally in a string from left to right, and compare that with a writing system like SignWriting, that is written in visual clusters...NOT written in a string...we do not write like the SignSpellings look...one symbol after the other...we write in two-dimensional relationships because those relationships, of the hands under the head, and so forth...those clusters of symbols in proper alignment with the human body...those "symbol relationships" hold meaning to us in a way that the symbols from left to right could never do...</div><div><br></div><div>For example, if a sign is done over the head, it can mean one thing, and if the sign is produced under the head, it could mean something else, so the visual placement is important for meaning.</div><div><br></div><div>So just placing symbols in a string doesn't give you the feeling or the meaning of signs...</div><div><br></div><div>That is the very reason why SignWriting works...because we don't write "symbols in a line in sequence"...</div><div><br></div><div>I realize this is no help to your project, and we can continue discussing this...I can continue the discussion later tomorrow as I have appointments all day today...</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>--------</div><div><br><div><div>Hasna Hocini wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite">Thank you very much for your answers and interest to help me...<br>We are working on statistical translation. <br>The problem now is to find a compact representation of signs, because if we use the two dimensional representations of signs (As it is in SWML: symbol code, position x,y ), it will not work and the results of our statistical translation system will not be satisfying.<br>So, we'll use the SignSpelling representation. If we can have the syllables also, It will improve the codification. We will have for example for the second syllable (Mvt syllable) less signs so we will not need to codify that on 13 positions as it is in SSS-2004 but two positions will be enough (177 movements symbols -> using the alphabet to codify them, two positions it will enough 26*26 =676).<br>Do you think I can do it in a different way?<br>Thanks a lot,<br>Hasna<br><br><br>--------------<br><br><br><br><b><i>Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>></i></b> a écrit :<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> I would agree. Think of a sign as a whole concept, like Chinese, you are not translating stroke for stroke, you are translating a whole sign into a whole concept. <br><br>The sign spelling helps one look up two signs in a dictionary by how they are produced, not by their meaning, just like ANGRY and APPLE can be looked up in the dictionary by spelling, not by meaning. <br><br>In ASL, the ANGRY hand would be a 5-claw hand at the chest, APPLE would be a A-hand at the corner of the mouth. They would sort by their handshapes first, but that has nothing to do with their meaning.<br><br><b><i>Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a>></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> SignWriting List<br>May 15, 2008<br><br>Hasna Hocini wrote:<br>> 1- If I ask two signers to sign the word "Interesting". Will they do <br>> it the same way?<br>> What are the differences they will introduce ?<br><br>Hello Hasna and everyone -<br><br>Your work with translation from signwritten signs, into spoken <br>language, is a big job but a fascinating subject...thank you for <br>sharing your project with us ;-)<br><br>1. There are several signs for the concept of INTERESTING, in American <br>Sign Language...Just like in other spoken languages, there are <br>oftentimes several words you could use for one concept...<br><br>Here are three writings of the sign for INTERESTING in the ASL <br>SignPuddle Dictionary, to give you an example....and there may be more <br>variations and signs that could be equivalent as well...<br><br>The important thing to realize is that this has nothing to do with <br>syllables. I cannot see how syllables have anything to do with <br>translation, since the "whole word" or "whole sign" carries the <br>meanings...the syllables do not have meanings... In this attached <br>diagram, you can see the SignSpellings to the right of the signs (the <br>tiny grey symbols in little boxes)...those are only for sorting the <br>dictionary by symbols and not the way we actually write the <br>signs...The fact that the SignSpellings can be divided into syllables <br>is not important for sorting dictionaries...<br><br>Looking at the three attached signs...<br><br>1. two-handed sign<br>2. same sign as 1, but one-handed<br>3. different sign that can also mean fascinating<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br><br>Change Email Settings<br>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</blockquote><br><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br><br>Change Email Settings<br>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</blockquote><br><p> __________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>En finir avec le spam? 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Mail <br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br><br>Change Email Settings<br>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l<br></p></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Val ;-)</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 14px/normal Arial; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Valerie Sutton</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); "><span style="text-decoration: underline; "><a href="mailto:Sutton@SignWriting.org">Sutton@SignWriting.org</a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">1. SignWriting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Read & Write Sign Languages</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); "><span style="text-decoration: underline; "><a href="http://www.SignWriting.org">http://www.SignWriting.org</a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">2. SignPuddle</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Create SignWriting Documents Online</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); "><span style="text-decoration: underline; "><a href="http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle">http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle</a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">3. SignBank</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">SignWriting Desktop Databases</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); "><span style="text-decoration: underline; "><a href="http://www.SignBank.org">http://www.SignBank.org</a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">4. SignWriting List</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Technical Support: Ask questions to the List </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Geneva; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); "><span style="text-decoration: underline; "><a href="http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist">http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist</a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">5. SignWriting Literature Project</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Writing Literature in Sign Languages</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; color: rgb(0, 0, 240); "><span style="text-decoration: underline; "><a href="http://www.SignWriting.org/literature">http://www.SignWriting.org/literature</a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Deaf Action Committee For SignWriting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">Center For Sutton Movement Writing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">an educational nonprofit organization</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial; ">P.O. 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