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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single
stemmed arrows for side-to-side movement. But it is interesting what Andre
had to say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows with
floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall plane
handshapes. It makes sense to me, though! And if the kids feel it is
easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape plane, then maybe we
should think about adopting that as a convention... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>KJ</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com
href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com">Stefan Wöhrmann</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">'SignWriting List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> AW: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Andrè,
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree with Adams
comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile – From my point of view – I prefer single
stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the left or right side. But this
attitude developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sometimes I hesitate
if I should vote for top – down or frontview if a handorientation
allows both options ... and in the past we discussed this point that
almost always both hands in a sign should be written – (if possible) from the
same point of view ( both hands top down, or both hands front view) But even
here I decide to violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the
reader to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So – my opinion –
left and right movement – (if they are meant to be straight to the left and
straight to the right) c a n be written with both
arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always vote
for the single stemmed arrows.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stefan ;-)
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von </SPAN></B>Gagnon et
Thibeault<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B>
Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B> SignWriting List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B> Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Adam and
everyone,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same. But Deaf students'thinking is
different from your thinking. For example, Deaf students develop a
phonological analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or wall
plane and single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall
plane)). Deaf students found that they are more comfortable to read (B)
than (A) because of the same wall planes. It is very important
for me to understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for Deaf
kids, not Deaf adults. For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is
able to read (B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf
teacher.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than younger
kids.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
André</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: yellow 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=icemandeaf@gmail.com href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com">Adam Frost</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[sw-l] Movement to the side<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The difference between using the single stem arrow
and double stem for side movements is just writers preference. Either is
still correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on
the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not surprise that
the deaf students are talking about floor and wall planes.
;-)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Adam<BR><BR>On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15
AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <<A
href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Val, Adam,
Stefan and everyone,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a top
view.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
See my attached diagram. This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) =
INTERDICT (English). Deaf students are confused to read it because
they stopped reading and figured out it. Several Deaf students
explained that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front
view), and the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows is
viewed from the floor (top view). They suggested that the two
hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to
the side with the double-stemmed arrows is viewed from the front
wall (front view) (See the attached diagram (B) because Deaf students
read it easily (the same front view). They told Deaf teacher if they
use the two hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the
movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from
the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C). They don't want
to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read
it.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front view
and the top view.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
I adopt Deaf
students'proposal.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
André</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SW
DEFENDRE.doc><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
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