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<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6>Hi Anne-Claude, Stefan, Kelly
Jo and everyone,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6> Anny,
Stefan and Kelly Jo, thanks for your comments.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6> Stefan,
you wrote : That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and
deaf<BR>babys learn to sign. I have to say : No. Don't forget that
if a deaf infant is born to hearing parents (95%), he or she receives no
language input (sign language and spoken language), delayed langauge input,
or inconsistant language input. He or she has the limits on the language
learning imposed by the cognitve and neural maturation during development.
For example, in general, "some" Deaf kids who are 7 to 9 years
old have been learning his/her sign language at the first
time since 3 or 4 year. They have still been a poor sign
language. However, a SW helps them develop their skilled sign
language. They are able to read it slowly because of the delayed cogntion and
delayed language. They can understand a sign for DEFENDRE (B), not (A). It
is not always a word "beginner" or "beginning readers and writers". If a
Deaf infant is born to Deaf parents (5%), you are right. I answer:
Yes. One Deaf kid who is 4 years old has been learning his sign
language since birth. He learned fast a SW last
year. But, his Deaf family moved to another
city. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6> Hand
waving</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6>
André</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #ffff00 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=acpg@vtxnet.ch href="mailto:acpg@vtxnet.ch">Anne-Claude Prélaz
Girod</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 28, 2008 6:20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV>I think the graphic below is really usefull
to help understand,....
<DIV>and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral
movements</DIV>
<DIV>have a nice week-end everyone</DIV>
<DIV>Anny<BR>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>Le 28 nov. 08 � 12:14, Stefan W�hrmann a �crit :</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi KJ and list,
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">well from my point
of view there is no need for any change in this matter. � smile �
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And Andr�, well
during my workshops I often understand that the beginners support themselves
with some guidelines that help them to learn with less insecurity. That is
fine � so no problem if they prefer double stemmed arrows � From the
teachers point of view I would not insist too much on this but just accept
their writing ( if they really would write themselves that would be a
tremendous achievement) �At the same time I would follow the principles we
know from other fields of instructions � just do not repeat what you
yourself would judge to be wrong � but instead offer your �other� solution.
That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf babys
learn to sign. Why not accept special favorite options to beginners ...
smile ... no problem with that. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Within this context
� well I have my doubts � perhaps this habit to vote for double stemmed
arrows is connected to the teaching method. Often SW-instruction courses
start with hands parallel to the wall � so all these movements up and down
and circular and diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement
arrows. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is always a
critical point if you have to explain the writing of a flat hand pointing
directly to the right or left � now the participants understand that it is
up to you to see this� hand from top down or from frontview �and this will
lead to the association that if you vote for frontview you are better of
with the double stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow
only the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and
experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of �strokes�
and �circles� as long as the idea can be described in a way that the
�informed reader� understands what is to be performed.
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So no extra
regulations needed � smile � <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stefan ;-)
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [<A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordo">mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordo</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">mo.valenciacc.edu] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von </SPAN></B>KJ<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B> Freitag, 28. November 2008
05:27<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B> SignWriting
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B> Re: [sw-l]
Movement to the side</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I feel the same way, Stefan - I
always write single stemmed arrows for side-to-side movement.� But it is
interesting what Andre had to say... I didn't think about connecting the
single-stemmed arrows with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows
with wall plane handshapes.� It makes sense to me, though!� And if the kids
feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape plane,
then maybe we should think about adopting that as a convention...
</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">KJ</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com
href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com">Stefan W�hrmann</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">'SignWriting List'</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> AW:
[sw-l] Movement to the side<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Andr�,
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree with
Adams comment � it doesn�t matter. � smile � From my point of view � I
prefer single stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the left or
right side. But this attitude developed over time � I guess it is a matter
of clear structure .. . <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sometimes I
hesitate if I should vote for top � down or frontview� if a�
handorientation allows� both options ... and in the past we discussed this
point that almost always both hands in a sign should be written � (if
possible) from the same point of view ( both hands top down, or both hands
front view) But even here I decide to violate this �principle� if anything
seems to prevent the reader to understand intuitively and alost without
any hesitation. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So � my opinion �
left and right movement � (if they are meant to be straight to the left
and straight to the right) ��c a n�� be written with both arrows ( double
stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always vote for the single
stemmed arrows.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stefan ;-)
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [<A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>]
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von </SPAN></B>Gagnon et
Thibeault<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B>
Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B> SignWriting List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B> Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Adam and
everyone,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� Yes, (A)
and (B) are correct or the same.� But Deaf students'thinking is different
from your thinking.� For example, Deaf students develop a phonological
analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and
single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall
plane)).� Deaf students found that they are more comfortable to read (B)
than�(A)�because of the same wall planes.� It is very important for me to
understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for Deaf kids,
not Deaf adults.� For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to
read (B)�more easy�than (A) according to Deaf
teacher.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� I don't
doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than younger
kids.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Andr�</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: yellow 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV style="font-color: black">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=icemandeaf@gmail.com href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com">Adam
Frost</A> <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</A>
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re:
[sw-l] Movement to the side<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The difference between using the single stem
arrow and double stem for side movements is just writers preference.
Either is still correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have
the hands on the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am
not surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall
planes. ;-)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Adam<BR><BR>On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon
et Thibeault" <<A
href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</A>>
wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Val,
Adam, Stefan and
everyone,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� It is
interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a top
view.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� See my
attached diagram.� This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) =
INTERDICT (English).� Deaf students are confused to read it because
they stopped reading and figured out it.� Several Deaf students
explained that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front
view), and the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows is
viewed from the floor (top view).�� They suggested that the two hands
are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the
side with the double-stemmed arrows is viewed from the�front
wall�(front view) (See the attached diagram (B) because Deaf students
read it easily (the same front view).� They told Deaf teacher if they
use�the two hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the
movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed
from the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).� They don't
want to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read
it.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� I can't
believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front view and
the top view.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� I adopt
Deaf
students'proposal.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Andr�</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SW
DEFENDRE.doc><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt" type="cite">
<DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
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<HR>
<P></P>I think the graphic below is really usefull to help
understand,....<BR>and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for
lateral <BR>movements<BR>have a nice week-end
everyone<BR>Anny<BR><BR>Le 28 nov. 08 à 12:14, Stefan Wöhrmann a écrit
:<BR><BR>> Hi KJ and list,<BR>><BR>> well from my point of view there
is no need for any change in this <BR>> matter. – smile
–<BR>><BR>> And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand that
the <BR>> beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help
them to <BR>> learn with less insecurity. That is fine – so no
problem if they <BR>> prefer double stemmed arrows – >>From the
teachers point of view I <BR>> would not insist too much on this but
just accept their writing <BR>> ( if they really would write
themselves that would be a tremendous <BR>> achievement) At the
same time I would follow the principles we <BR>> know from other
fields of instructions – just do not repeat what <BR>> you yourself
would judge to be wrong – but instead offer your <BR>> “other”
solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys <BR>> learn to
talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special <BR>>
favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with
that.<BR>><BR>> Within this context – well I have my doubts – perhaps
this habit <BR>> to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to
the teaching <BR>> method. Often SW-instruction courses start with
hands parallel to <BR>> the wall – so all these movements up and down
and circular and <BR>> diagonal ... are associated with double
stemmed movement arrows.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> It is always a
critical point if you have to explain the writing of <BR>> a flat
hand pointing directly to the right or left – now the <BR>>
participants understand that it is up to you to see this hand from
<BR>> top down or from frontview and this will lead to the
association <BR>> that if you vote for frontview you are better of
with the double <BR>> stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows
would allow only <BR>> the exact to the right or exact to the left
movement. Advanced and <BR>> experienced scribes and readers prefer
spellings with a minimum of <BR>> “strokes” and “circles” as long as
the idea can be described <BR>> in a way that the “informed reader”
understands what is to be <BR>>
performed.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> So no extra regulations needed –
smile –<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Stefan
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Von:
sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l- <BR>>
bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von KJ<BR>> Gesendet: Freitag,
28. November 2008 05:27<BR>> An: SignWriting List<BR>> Betreff: Re:
[sw-l] Movement to the side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I feel the same
way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows <BR>> for
side-to-side movement. But it is interesting what Andre had to
<BR>> say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed
arrows <BR>> with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows
with wall <BR>> plane handshapes. It makes sense to me,
though! And if the kids <BR>> feel it is easier to read when
the arrow stems match the handshape <BR>> plane, then maybe we should
think about adopting that as a <BR>>
convention...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> KJ<BR>><BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>><BR>> From: Stefan Wöhrmann<BR>><BR>>
To: 'SignWriting List'<BR>><BR>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42
AM<BR>><BR>> Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the
side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi Andrè,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
I agree with Adams comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile – <BR>> From
my point of view – I prefer single stemmed arrows if the <BR>>
movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude
<BR>> developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear structure ..
.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for
top – down or frontview <BR>> if a handorientation
allows both options ... and in the past we <BR>> discussed this
point that almost always both hands in a sign should <BR>> be written
– (if possible) from the same point of view ( both <BR>> hands top
down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to <BR>>
violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the reader
<BR>> to understand intuitively and alost without any
hesitation.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> So – my opinion – left and right
movement – (if they are meant <BR>> to be straight to the left and
straight to the right) c a n be <BR>> written
with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in <BR>>
these cases I always vote for the single stemmed
arrows.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Stefan
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Von:
sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l- <BR>>
bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault<BR>>
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04<BR>> An: SignWriting
List<BR>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi Adam and
everyone,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Yes, (A) and
(B) are correct or the same. But Deaf <BR>> students'thinking
is different from your thinking. For example, <BR>> Deaf
students develop a phonological analysis for different SW <BR>>
symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow
<BR>> (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).
Deaf <BR>> students found that they are more comfortable to read (B)
than (A) <BR>> because of the same wall planes. It is very
important for me to <BR>> understand how to acquire and learn a
phonological analysis for <BR>> Deaf kids, not Deaf adults. For
example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years <BR>> old is able to read (B) more
easy than (A) according to Deaf
teacher.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I don't doubt
that older kids are able to read either (A) and <BR>> (B) than
younger kids.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Regards,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
André<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>><BR>> From: Adam Frost<BR>><BR>> To: SignWriting
List<BR>><BR>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03
AM<BR>><BR>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> The difference between using the single
stem arrow and double stem <BR>> for side movements is just writers
preference. Either is still <BR>> correct. So (A) and (B) are the
same. (C) and (D) have the hands on <BR>> the floor plane which is
different from (A) and (B). I am not <BR>> surprise that the deaf
students are talking about floor and wall <BR>> planes.
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Adam<BR>><BR>> On Nov 27, 2008, at
7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <BR>> <atg@videotron.ca>
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and
everyone,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view
<BR>>> and a top
view.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
See my attached diagram. This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE
<BR>>> (French) = INTERDICT (English). Deaf students are confused
to <BR>>> read it because they stopped reading and figured out
it. Several <BR>>> Deaf students explained that the two
hands are parallel with the <BR>>> front wall (front view), and
the movement to the side with the <BR>>> single-stemmed arrows is
viewed from the floor (top view). They <BR>>>
suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall
<BR>>> (front view), and the movement to the side with the
double-stemmed <BR>>> arrows is viewed from the front wall (front
view) (See the <BR>>> attached diagram (B) because Deaf students
read it easily (the <BR>>> same front view). They told Deaf
teacher if they use the two <BR>>> hands which are parallel with
the floor, they use the movement to <BR>>> the side with the
single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the <BR>>> floor (top
view) (See the attached diagram (C). They don't want <BR>>>
to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read
it.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the
<BR>>> front view and the top
view.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
I adopt Deaf
students'proposal.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Regards,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
André<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <SW
DEFENDRE.doc><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
____________________________________________<BR>>><BR>>> SW-L
SignWriting List<BR>>><BR>>> Post Message<BR>>>
SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<BR>>><BR>>> List Archives and
Help<BR>>>
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Settings<BR>>>
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