<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<div>November 28, 2008</div><div><br></div><div>Just a side note...</div><div><br></div><div>There is an old photo gallery of some of Stefan's Deaf students writing SignWriting, which I posted years ago on the web...the first Deaf child is named Irina, and she too is a native signer (is that correct, Stefan?...I hope I remember correctly about that)...of course all these children are now close to being grown-up...but they certainly can use SignWriting! Great photos, Stefan...thanks for sharing these with us long ago...</div><div><br></div><div>Deaf children in Germany using SignWriting</div><div><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany01.html">http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany01.html</a></div><div><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany02.html">http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany02.html</a></div><div><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany03.html">http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany03.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>So Andre, if you have photos that you have permission to share with us, of your Deaf students and teachers using SignWriting in your research project in Quebec, I will be very happy to post them...they will be valuable for future research, just as Stefan's photos are...</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-----------</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Nov 28, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#000000" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">Hi Anne-Claude, Stefan, Kelly Jo and everyone,</font></font></strong></div><div><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></font></strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> Anny, Stefan and Kelly Jo, thanks for your comments.</font></font></strong></div><div><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></font></strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> Stefan, you wrote : That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf<br>babys learn to sign. I have to say : No. Don't forget that if a deaf infant is born to hearing parents (95%), he or she receives no language input (sign language and spoken language), delayed langauge input, or inconsistant language input. He or she has the limits on the language learning imposed by the cognitve and neural maturation during development. For example, in general, "some" Deaf kids who are 7 to 9 years old have been learning his/her sign language at the first time since 3 or 4 year. They have still been a poor sign language. However, a SW helps them develop their skilled sign language. They are able to read it slowly because of the delayed cogntion and delayed language. They can understand a sign for DEFENDRE (B), not (A). It is not always a word "beginner" or "beginning readers and writers". If a Deaf infant is born to Deaf parents (5%), you are right. I answer: Yes. One Deaf kid who is 4 years old has been learning his sign language since birth. He learned fast a SW last year. But, his Deaf family moved to another city. </font></font></strong></div><div><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></font></strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> Hand waving</font></font></strong></div><div><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></font></strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> André</font></font></strong></div><div><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></font></strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></font></strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial" color="#ffff00" size="6"></font></strong> </div><blockquote style="padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(255, 255, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; margin-right: 0px; "><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; ">----- Original Message -----</div><div style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; background-position: initial initial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="acpg@vtxnet.ch" href="mailto:acpg@vtxnet.ch">Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, November 28, 2008 6:20 AM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side</div><div><strong><font face="Arial" color="#ffff00" size="6"></font></strong><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></strong><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></strong><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></strong><br></div>I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....<div>and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral movements</div><div>have a nice week-end everyone</div><div>Anny<br><div><span></span></div></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><div><span></span><strong><font face="Arial" color="#ffff00" size="6"></font></strong><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></strong><strong><font face="Arial" size="6"></font></strong><br><div><div>Le 28 nov. 08 � 12:14, Stefan W�hrmann a �crit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div class="Section1"><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">Hi KJ and list,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this matter. � smile �<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">And Andr�, well during my workshops I often understand that the beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to learn with less insecurity. That is fine � so no problem if they prefer double stemmed arrows � From the teachers point of view I would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous achievement) �At the same time I would follow the principles we know from other fields of instructions � just do not repeat what you yourself would judge to be wrong � but instead offer your �other� solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">Within this context � well I have my doubts � perhaps this habit to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to the wall � so all these movements up and down and circular and diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left � now the participants understand that it is up to you to see this� hand from top down or from frontview �and this will lead to the association that if you vote for frontview you are better of with the double stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow only the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of �strokes� and �circles� as long as the idea can be described in a way that the �informed reader� understands what is to be performed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">So no extra regulations needed � smile �<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">Stefan ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr tabindex="-1" align="center" width="100%" size="2"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">Von:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordo">mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordo</a></span></font><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">mo.valenciacc.edu]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>KJ<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Gesendet:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">An:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SignWriting List<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Betreff:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows for side-to-side movement.� But it is interesting what Andre had to say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall plane handshapes.� It makes sense to me, though!� And if the kids feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as a convention...</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">KJ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-right-color: initial; padding-right: 0cm; border-top-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-top-color: initial; padding-left: 4pt; padding-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 5pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; border-left-color: black; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0cm; border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; "><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); background-position: initial initial; "><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">From:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com" href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com">Stefan W�hrmann</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">To:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">'SignWriting List'</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Sent:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Subject:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">Hi Andr�,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">I agree with Adams comment � it doesn�t matter. � smile � From my point of view � I prefer single stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude developed over time � I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top � down or frontview� if a� handorientation allows� both options ... and in the past we discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should be written � (if possible) from the same point of view ( both hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to violate this �principle� if anything seems to prevent the reader to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">So � my opinion � left and right movement � (if they are meant to be straight to the left and straight to the right) ��c a n�� be written with both arrows ( double<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; ">Stefan ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr tabindex="-1" align="center" width="100%" size="2"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">Von:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Gagnon et Thibeault<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Gesendet:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">An:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SignWriting List<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Betreff:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side</span></font><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">Hi Adam and everyone,</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.� But Deaf students'thinking is different from your thinking.� For example, Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).� Deaf students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than�(A)�because of the same wall planes.� It is very important for me to understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.� For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to read (B)�more easy�than (A) according to Deaf teacher.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than younger kids.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� Regards,</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� Andr�</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><blockquote style="border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-right-color: initial; padding-right: 0cm; border-top-width: medium; border-top-style: none; border-top-color: initial; padding-left: 4pt; padding-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 5pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; border-left-color: yellow; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-style: solid; padding-top: 0cm; border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; "><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">----- Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); background-position: initial initial; "><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">From:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="icemandeaf@gmail.com" href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com">Adam Frost</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">To:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Sent:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-weight: bold; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Subject:</span></font></b><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall planes. ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Adam<br><br>On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <<a href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a top view.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� See my attached diagram.� This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) = INTERDICT (English).� Deaf students are confused to read it because they stopped reading and figured out it.� Several Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view).�� They suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed arrows is viewed from the�front wall�(front view) (See the attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the same front view).� They told Deaf teacher if they use�the two hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).� They don't want to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front view and the top view.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� I adopt Deaf students'proposal.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� Regards,</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font face="Arial" color="yellow" size="6"><span style="font-size: 24pt; color: yellow; font-family: Arial; ">��� Andr�</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">�<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><SW DEFENDRE.doc><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br><br>Change Email Settings<br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></blockquote><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br><br>Change Email Settings<br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p>�</o:p></span></font></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; ">Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.spamfighter.com/lde">SPAMfighter</a>, die bisher<br>430 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.<br>Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br><br>Change Email Settings<br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center; "><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr align="center" width="100%" size="2"></span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><br>No virus found in this incoming message.<br>Checked by AVG -<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.avg.com">http://www.avg.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1816 - Release Date: 11/27/2008 7:53 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></blockquote></div><br><hr>Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.spamfighter.com/lde">SPAMfighter</a>, die bisher<br>433 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.<br>Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon<div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">____________________________________________</div><div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">SW-L SignWriting List</div><div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Post Message</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a></div><div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">List Archives and Help</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a></div><div style="min-height: 14px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Change Email Settings</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....<br>and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>movements<br>have a nice week-end everyone<br>Anny<br><br>Le 28 nov. 08 à 12:14, Stefan Wöhrmann a écrit :<br><br>> Hi KJ and list,<br>><br>> well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> matter. – smile –<br>><br>> And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand that the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> learn with less insecurity. That is fine – so no problem if they <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> prefer double stemmed arrows – >From the teachers point of view I <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> achievement) At the same time I would follow the principles we <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> know from other fields of instructions – just do not repeat what <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> you yourself would judge to be wrong – but instead offer your <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> “other” solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.<br>><br>> Within this context – well I have my doubts – perhaps this habit <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> the wall – so all these movements up and down and circular and <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.<br>><br>><br>><br>> It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left – now the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> participants understand that it is up to you to see this hand from <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> top down or from frontview and this will lead to the association <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> that if you vote for frontview you are better of with the double <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow only <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> “strokes” and “circles” as long as the idea can be described <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> in a way that the “informed reader” understands what is to be <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> performed.<br>><br>><br>><br>> So no extra regulations needed – smile –<br>><br>><br>><br>> Stefan ;-)<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> Von: <a href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:sw-l-">mailto:sw-l-</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>] Im Auftrag von KJ<br>> Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27<br>> An: SignWriting List<br>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side<br>><br>><br>><br>> I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> for side-to-side movement. But it is interesting what Andre had to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> plane handshapes. It makes sense to me, though! And if the kids <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as a <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> convention...<br>><br>><br>><br>> KJ<br>><br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>><br>> From: Stefan Wöhrmann<br>><br>> To: 'SignWriting List'<br>><br>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM<br>><br>> Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side<br>><br>><br>><br>> Hi Andrè,<br>><br>><br>><br>> I agree with Adams comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile – <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> From my point of view – I prefer single stemmed arrows if the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .<br>><br>><br>><br>> Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top – down or frontview <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> if a handorientation allows both options ... and in the past we <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> be written – (if possible) from the same point of view ( both <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the reader <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.<br>><br>><br>><br>> So – my opinion – left and right movement – (if they are meant <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> to be straight to the left and straight to the right) c a n be <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> written with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> Stefan ;-)<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> Von: <a href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:sw-l-">mailto:sw-l-</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault<br>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04<br>> An: SignWriting List<br>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side<br>><br>><br>><br>> Hi Adam and everyone,<br>><br>><br>><br>> Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same. But Deaf <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> students'thinking is different from your thinking. For example, <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)). Deaf <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than (A) <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> because of the same wall planes. It is very important for me to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Deaf kids, not Deaf adults. For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> old is able to read (B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf teacher.<br>><br>><br>><br>> I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> (B) than younger kids.<br>><br>><br>><br>> Regards,<br>><br>><br>><br>> André<br>><br>><br>><br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>><br>> From: Adam Frost<br>><br>> To: SignWriting List<br>><br>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM<br>><br>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side<br>><br>><br>><br>> The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> planes. ;-)<br>><br>><br>><br>> Adam<br>><br>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> <<a href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</a>> wrote:<br>><br>>> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> and a top view.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> See my attached diagram. This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> (French) = INTERDICT (English). Deaf students are confused to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> read it because they stopped reading and figured out it. Several <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view). They <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> arrows is viewed from the front wall (front view) (See the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> same front view). They told Deaf teacher if they use the two <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C). They don't want <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> front view and the top view.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> I adopt Deaf students'proposal.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> Regards,<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> André<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> <SW DEFENDRE.doc><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> ____________________________________________<br>>><br>>> SW-L SignWriting List<br>>><br>>> Post Message<br>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>>><br>>> List Archives and Help<br>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>>><br>>> Change Email Settings<br>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br>>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> ____________________________________________<br>><br>> SW-L SignWriting List<br>><br>> Post Message<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>><br>> List Archives and Help<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>><br>> Change Email Settings<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br>><br>><br>><br>> Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter, die bisher<br>> 430 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.<br>> Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> ____________________________________________<br>><br>> SW-L SignWriting List<br>><br>> Post Message<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>><br>> List Archives and Help<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>><br>> Change Email Settings<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br>><br>><br>> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>> Checked by AVG -<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.avg.com">http://www.avg.com</a><br>> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1816 - Release Date: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> 11/27/2008 7:53 PM<br>><br>><br>> Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter, die bisher<br>> 433 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.<br>> Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon<br>><br>><br>><br>> ____________________________________________<br>><br>> SW-L SignWriting List<br>><br>> Post Message<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>><br>> List Archives and Help<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>><br>> Change Email Settings<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br><br><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><hr><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br><br>Change Email Settings<br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br></blockquote><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br><br>Change Email Settings<br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>