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<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6>Hi Val and
everyone,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6> I will ask
a Deaf teacher if she has a photo. The school is in Ottawa, not in Quebec.
But, Deaf students use a French language and a LSQ.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6><FONT
color=#ffff00> Hand waving</FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6><FONT
color=#ffff00> André</FONT>
</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=signwriting@mac.com href="mailto:signwriting@mac.com">Valerie
Sutton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 28, 2008 10:33
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
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size=6></FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV>SignWriting List
<DIV>November 28, 2008</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
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<DIV>Just a side note...</DIV>
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<DIV>There is an old photo gallery of some of Stefan's Deaf students writing
SignWriting, which I posted years ago on the web...the first Deaf child is
named Irina, and she too is a native signer (is that correct, Stefan?...I hope
I remember correctly about that)...of course all these children are now close
to being grown-up...but they certainly can use SignWriting! Great photos,
Stefan...thanks for sharing these with us long ago...</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
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<DIV>Deaf children in Germany using SignWriting</DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany01.html">http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany01.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany02.html">http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany02.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany03.html">http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany03.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
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<DIV>So Andre, if you have photos that you have permission to share with us,
of your Deaf students and teachers using SignWriting in your research project
in Quebec, I will be very happy to post them...they will be valuable for
future research, just as Stefan's photos are...</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
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<DIV>Val ;-)</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
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<DIV>-----------</DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>On Nov 28, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 16px Arial; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0">
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<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000>Hi Anne-Claude, Stefan, Kelly Jo and
everyone,</FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#000000><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></FONT></STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#ffff00
size=6><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000> Anny, Stefan and Kelly Jo, thanks for your
comments.</FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#000000><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></FONT></STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#ffff00
size=6><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000> Stefan, you wrote : That is the same
principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf<BR>babys learn to
sign. I have to say : No. Don't forget that if a deaf infant is
born to hearing parents (95%), he or she receives no language
input (sign language and spoken language), delayed langauge input, or
inconsistant language input. He or she has the limits on the language
learning imposed by the cognitve and neural maturation during
development. For example, in general, "some" Deaf kids
who are 7 to 9 years old have been
learning his/her sign language at the first time since
3 or 4 year. They have still been a poor sign language.
However, a SW helps them develop their skilled sign language. They are
able to read it slowly because of the delayed cogntion and delayed
language. They can understand a sign for DEFENDRE (B), not (A). It is
not always a word "beginner" or "beginning readers and writers". If a
Deaf infant is born to Deaf parents (5%), you are right. I answer:
Yes. One Deaf kid who is 4 years old has been learning his sign
language since birth. He learned fast a SW last
year. But, his Deaf family moved to another
city. </FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#000000><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></FONT></STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000> Hand waving</FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#000000><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></FONT></STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000> André</FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#000000><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></FONT></STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span color=#000000><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></FONT></STRONG><FONT class=Apple-style-span
color=#000000></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=acpg@vtxnet.ch
href="mailto:acpg@vtxnet.ch">Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Friday, November 28, 2008 6:20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><STRONG><FONT face=Arial
size=6></FONT></STRONG><BR></DIV>I think the graphic below is really
usefull to help understand,....
<DIV>and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral
movements</DIV>
<DIV>have a nice week-end everyone</DIV>
<DIV>Anny<BR>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<HR>
<DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00
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<DIV>
<DIV>Le 28 nov. 08 � 12:14, Stefan W�hrmann a �crit :</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi KJ and
list,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">well from my
point of view there is no need for any change in this matter. � smile
�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And Andr�, well
during my workshops I often understand that the beginners support
themselves with some guidelines that help them to learn with less
insecurity. That is fine � so no problem if they prefer double stemmed
arrows � From the teachers point of view I would not insist too much on
this but just accept their writing ( if they really would write
themselves that would be a tremendous achievement) �At the same time I
would follow the principles we know from other fields of instructions �
just do not repeat what you yourself would judge to be wrong � but
instead offer your �other� solution. That is the same principle as
hearing babys learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept
special favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with
that.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Within this
context � well I have my doubts � perhaps this habit to vote for double
stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching method. Often SW-instruction
courses start with hands parallel to the wall � so all these movements
up and down and circular and diagonal ... are associated with double
stemmed movement arrows.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is always a
critical point if you have to explain the writing of a flat hand
pointing directly to the right or left � now the participants understand
that it is up to you to see this� hand from top down or from frontview
�and this will lead to the association that if you vote for frontview
you are better of with the double stemmed arrow whereas the single
stemmed arrows would allow only the exact to the right or exact to the
left movement. Advanced and experienced scribes and readers prefer
spellings with a minimum of �strokes� and �circles� as long as the idea
can be described in a way that the �informed reader� understands what is
to be performed.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So no extra
regulations needed � smile �<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stefan
;-)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordo">mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordo</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">mo.valenciacc.edu]<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></B>KJ<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Freitag, 28. November 2008
05:27<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>SignWriting List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I feel the same way, Stefan
- I always write single stemmed arrows for side-to-side movement.� But
it is interesting what Andre had to say... I didn't think about
connecting the single-stemmed arrows with floor plane handshapes and
double-stemmed arrows with wall plane handshapes.� It makes sense to me,
though!� And if the kids feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems
match the handshape plane, then maybe we should think about adopting
that as a convention...</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">KJ</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message
-----<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com
href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com">Stefan
W�hrmann</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">'SignWriting
List'</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Thursday, November 27, 2008
10:42 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>AW: [sw-l] Movement to the
side<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi
Andr�,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree with
Adams comment � it doesn�t matter. � smile � From my point of view � I
prefer single stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the left
or right side. But this attitude developed over time � I guess it is a
matter of clear structure .. .<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sometimes I
hesitate if I should vote for top � down or frontview� if a�
handorientation allows� both options ... and in the past we discussed
this point that almost always both hands in a sign should be written �
(if possible) from the same point of view ( both hands top down, or
both hands front view) But even here I decide to violate this
�principle� if anything seems to prevent the reader to understand
intuitively and alost without any
hesitation.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">So � my
opinion � left and right movement � (if they are meant to be straight
to the left and straight to the right) ��c a n�� be written with both
arrows ( double<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN> <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>stemmed and sinle stemmed)
but in these cases I always vote for the single stemmed
arrows.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Stefan
;-)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Von:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>]<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Im Auftrag von<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN></B>Gagnon et
Thibeault<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Gesendet:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Donnerstag, 27. November 2008
18:04<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">An:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>SignWriting List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Betreff:</SPAN></B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Adam and
everyone,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� Yes,
(A) and (B) are correct or the same.� But Deaf students'thinking is
different from your thinking.� For example, Deaf students develop a
phonological analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or
wall plane and single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed
arrow (wall plane)).� Deaf students found that they are more
comfortable to read (B) than�(A)�because of the same wall planes.� It
is very important for me to understand how to acquire and learn a
phonological analysis for Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.� For example, a
Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to read (B)�more easy�than (A)
according to Deaf
teacher.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� I don't
doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than younger
kids.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Andr�</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: yellow 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message
-----<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=icemandeaf@gmail.com href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com">Adam
Frost</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting
List</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Thursday, November 27, 2008
11:03 AM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The difference between using the single stem
arrow and double stem for side movements is just writers preference.
Either is still correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D)
have the hands on the floor plane which is different from (A) and
(B). I am not surprise that the deaf students are talking about
floor and wall planes. ;-)<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Adam<BR><BR>On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM,
"Gagnon et Thibeault" <<A
href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</A>>
wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"
type="cite"><DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Val,
Adam, Stefan and
everyone,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� It
is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a
top view.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� See
my attached diagram.� This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) =
INTERDICT (English).� Deaf students are confused to read it
because they stopped reading and figured out it.� Several Deaf
students explained that the two hands are parallel with the front
wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the
single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view).�� They
suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall
(front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed
arrows is viewed from the�front wall�(front view) (See the
attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the
same front view).� They told Deaf teacher if they use�the two
hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to
the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the
floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).� They don't want
to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read
it.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� I
can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front
view and the top
view.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">��� I
adopt Deaf
students'proposal.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial color=yellow
size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: yellow; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">���
Andr�</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">�<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"
type="cite"><DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SW
DEFENDRE.doc><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"
type="cite"><DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><BR>____________________________________________<BR><BR>SW-L
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<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P>�</O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="http://www.spamfighter.com/lde">SPAMfighter</A>, die
bisher<BR>430 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart
hat.<BR>Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter
schon<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR><BR>____________________________________________<BR><BR>SW-L
SignWriting List<BR><BR>Post Message<BR><A
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<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>No virus found in this incoming
message.<BR>Checked by AVG -<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="http://www.avg.com">http://www.avg.com</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus
Database: 270.9.11/1816 - Release Date: 11/27/2008 7:53
PM<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<HR>
Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="http://www.spamfighter.com/lde">SPAMfighter</A>, die bisher<BR>433
Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.<BR>Rund 5,6
Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>
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<DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>
<HR>
<DIV><BR class=webkit-block-placeholder></DIV>I think the graphic below is
really usefull to help understand,....<BR>and then anyone feel free to
chose the arrow he prefers for lateral <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>movements<BR>have a nice
week-end everyone<BR>Anny<BR><BR>Le 28 nov. 08 à 12:14, Stefan Wöhrmann a
écrit :<BR><BR>> Hi KJ and list,<BR>><BR>> well from my point of
view there is no need for any change in this <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> matter. – smile
–<BR>><BR>> And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand
that the <SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>
beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them
to <SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> learn with
less insecurity. That is fine – so no problem if they <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> prefer double stemmed
arrows – >From the teachers point of view I <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> would not insist too
much on this but just accept their writing <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> ( if they really would
write themselves that would be a tremendous <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> achievement) At
the same time I would follow the principles we <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> know from other fields
of instructions – just do not repeat what <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> you yourself would judge
to be wrong – but instead offer your <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> “other” solution. That
is the same principle as hearing babys <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> learn to talk and deaf
babys learn to sign. Why not accept special <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> favorite options to
beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.<BR>><BR>> Within this
context – well I have my doubts – perhaps this habit <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> to vote for double
stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> method. Often
SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> the wall – so all these
movements up and down and circular and <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> diagonal ... are
associated with double stemmed movement
arrows.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> It is always a critical point if
you have to explain the writing of <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> a flat hand pointing
directly to the right or left – now the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> participants understand
that it is up to you to see this hand from <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> top down or from
frontview and this will lead to the association <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> that if you vote for
frontview you are better of with the double <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> stemmed arrow whereas
the single stemmed arrows would allow only <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> the exact to the right
or exact to the left movement. Advanced and <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> experienced scribes and
readers prefer spellings with a minimum of <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> “strokes” and “circles”
as long as the idea can be described <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> in a way that the
“informed reader” understands what is to be <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>
performed.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> So no extra regulations needed
– smile –<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Stefan
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Von: <A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>
[<A href="mailto:sw-l-">mailto:sw-l-</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>]
Im Auftrag von KJ<BR>> Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008
05:27<BR>> An: SignWriting List<BR>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to
the side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I feel the same way, Stefan - I
always write single stemmed arrows <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> for side-to-side
movement. But it is interesting what Andre had to <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> say... I didn't think
about connecting the single-stemmed arrows <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> with floor plane
handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> plane handshapes.
It makes sense to me, though! And if the kids <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> feel it is easier to
read when the arrow stems match the handshape <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> plane, then maybe we
should think about adopting that as a <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>
convention...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> KJ<BR>><BR>> -----
Original Message -----<BR>><BR>> From: Stefan
Wöhrmann<BR>><BR>> To: 'SignWriting List'<BR>><BR>> Sent:
Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM<BR>><BR>> Subject: AW: [sw-l]
Movement to the side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi
Andrè,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I agree with Adams comment – it
doesn’t matter. – smile – <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> From my point of view –
I prefer single stemmed arrows if the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> movement is directly to
the left or right side. But this attitude <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> developed over time – I
guess it is a matter of clear structure ..
.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote
for top – down or frontview <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> if a
handorientation allows both options ... and in the past
we <SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> discussed
this point that almost always both hands in a sign should <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> be written – (if
possible) from the same point of view ( both <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> hands top down, or both
hands front view) But even here I decide to <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> violate this “principle”
if anything seems to prevent the reader <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> to understand
intuitively and alost without any
hesitation.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> So – my opinion – left and
right movement – (if they are meant <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> to be straight to the
left and straight to the right) c a n
be <SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> written
with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> these cases I always
vote for the single stemmed
arrows.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Stefan
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Von:
<A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>
[<A href="mailto:sw-l-">mailto:sw-l-</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
href="mailto:bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>]
Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault<BR>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27.
November 2008 18:04<BR>> An: SignWriting List<BR>> Betreff: Re:
[sw-l] Movement to the side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi Adam and
everyone,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Yes, (A)
and (B) are correct or the same. But Deaf <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> students'thinking is
different from your thinking. For example, <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> Deaf students develop a
phonological analysis for different SW <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> symbols (hand on the
floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> (floor plane) and
double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)). Deaf <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> students found that they
are more comfortable to read (B) than (A) <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> because of the same wall
planes. It is very important for me to <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> understand how to
acquire and learn a phonological analysis for <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> Deaf kids, not Deaf
adults. For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> old is able to read (B)
more easy than (A) according to Deaf
teacher.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I don't
doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> (B) than younger
kids.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Regards,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
André<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>><BR>> From: Adam Frost<BR>><BR>> To: SignWriting
List<BR>><BR>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03
AM<BR>><BR>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the
side<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> The difference between using the
single stem arrow and double stem <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> for side movements is
just writers preference. Either is still <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> correct. So (A) and (B)
are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> the floor plane which is
different from (A) and (B). I am not <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> surprise that the deaf
students are talking about floor and wall <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> planes.
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Adam<BR>><BR>> On Nov 27, 2008,
at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>> <<A
href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</A>>
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and
everyone,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> and a top
view.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
See my attached diagram. This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> (French) = INTERDICT
(English). Deaf students are confused to <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> read it because they
stopped reading and figured out it. Several <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> Deaf students
explained that the two hands are parallel with the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> front wall (front
view), and the movement to the side with the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> single-stemmed
arrows is viewed from the floor (top view). They <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> suggested that the
two hands are parallel with the front wall <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> (front view), and
the movement to the side with the double-stemmed <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> arrows is viewed
from the front wall (front view) (See the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> attached diagram (B)
because Deaf students read it easily (the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> same front
view). They told Deaf teacher if they use the two <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> hands which are
parallel with the floor, they use the movement to <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> the side with the
single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> floor (top view)
(See the attached diagram (C). They don't want <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> to use (D) since
they aren't conformtable to read
it.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the <SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>>> front view and the
top
view.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
I adopt Deaf
students'proposal.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
Regards,<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
André<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> <SW
DEFENDRE.doc><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
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SignWriting List<BR>>><BR>>> Post Message<BR>>><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
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