<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I love this question, and I will tell you why. It shows that you have a handle on these handshapes, and you are thinking in real world sense.<div><br></div><div>As a Lexiconian in the truest sense (I'd love to make an ASL equivalent to the Webster Dictionary, but that would be a life work. *wink*), I have made the same observations that you have just made. I have also noticed that it is rare for native users to realize that they have their hands the way that you have just described. This is the reason that the ASL Puddle, which is a collaborative dictionary, usually has the first set. The other reason is that most people can read the first set easier than the latter. ;-) The reason I mention this is if and when I were able to create and ASL Webster-like dictionary, then there would be something about this in the usage or pronunciation guide. </div><div><br></div><div>I know that I am not teaching your class, so I don't know the students. But if I were teaching a class that I felt could handle it, I would include both in the lessons and tell them that the first set is more of a novice way of signing as well as the visual image of how a native internally imagines their signing but are actually doing it the second way. The reason is in order to do the first set the elbow has to be in an awkward position or the wrist has to be painfully bent, whereas the latter set does not.</div><div><br></div><div>So now that I have rambled, I will answer your questions. :-) If you want to have those concepts in the ASL Puddle, you are more than welcome to add them. In fact, I think it is better to have both of them so that people can compare. As for your second question, I have been creating GIFs of all of the current handshapes. Because of everyone being swamped with so many projects, it is coming along very slowly. I have done these handshapes that you have mentioned, but I don't know if they have been put up on the website yet. I am not sure exactly why you are asking because you do understand it just fine. I am also surprised that there isn't anything about the latter set of handshapes on the website. I just find that odd. So I will check to see if my GIFs are on the website or not. If not, maybe I can figure something out.</div><div><br></div><div>Hope this helps, and I am glad that Val caught this in Digest because I never saw it. As always feel free to ask questions. It is the way to learn. ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>Adam</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Nov 30, 2008, at 9:03 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.494118); "><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; ">"Natasha Escalada-Westland" <<a href="mailto:shash90@hotmail.com">shash90@hotmail.com</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.494118); "><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; ">November 30, 2008 7:33:52 AM PST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.494118); "><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; ">"SignWriting Listserve" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.494118); "><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; "><b>[sw-l] Handshape question, "Stand" and "Look"</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.494118); "><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; ">"SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><br><br>Greetings SW colleagues,<br> <br>I am developing a lesson on teaching classifers and I am debating which handshapes to use in my presentation. The ASL signpuddle dictionary cites:<br> <br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; "><br></div><div align="left"><span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(20, 79, 174); font-size: 12px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><img height="30" width="19" src="cid:1D81AC13-B89B-441A-883B-8D4B220CB668@socal.rr.com"></span></span> a<font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">nd </font><span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><img height="30" width="19" src="cid:9DECA2C1-7C7C-417E-B04B-40D3E7FEA7B9@socal.rr.com"> as the handshapes for "stand" and "look-at" respectively.</font></span></span></div><div align="left"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"> </font></div><div align="left"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">As I look at myself signing these, and </font>as I think of using them as classifiers to describe types or ways of standing or looking-at, I see the following actual handshapes used:</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left"><span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(20, 79, 174); font-size: 12px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><img height="23" width="23" src="cid:4FE30ABF-3F29-4A9C-92BD-8948D75C273F@socal.rr.com"></span></span> and <span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(20, 79, 174); font-size: 12px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; "><img height="23" width="23" src="cid:A0A00A7B-9C94-48DE-9A3B-95161FA173CC@socal.rr.com"></span></span></div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">The "Lessons in SignWriting Web Gallery" explanation of Handshape group 2 doesn't include the above handsapes, although I do understand them to mean index and middle fingers bent slightly at the proximal knuckle.</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">First question... Do the signs in the ASL SignPuddle need to be updated as written for these concepts? To keep the fingers straight requires unnatural lifting of the shoulder and elbow.</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Second question... is there an updated lesson book or handshape list that includes the second set of handshapes somwhere on the SignWriting website?</div><div align="left"> </div><div align="left">Thank you!</div><br>Natasha Escalada-Westland, M.Ed. (D/HH), Macromedia Cert.<br><a href="http://www.westlandasl.com/">www.westlandasl.com</a></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>