<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<div>December 2, 2008</div><div><br></div><div>Hello Ingvild and Charles!</div><div>Thanks for your messages below...</div><div><br></div><div>And yes, Ingvild, I agree that viewing the symbols in a row, is not the same as applying them to writing in real life...99 per cent of the time, signs are relating to the "center of the body"...especially when people are signing fast...all of our old and current writing is relating to the "Center rule" without us even realizing it...it just happens naturally that the majority of signs do not twist "out"...so the majority have fingers directed to the center area of the sign...</div><div><br></div><div>And yes, Charles, of course there are some exceptions...twisting a jar may have a "twist" to it, and that would be one of those exceptions where possibly you will need the outside projection of the fingers...which is one of the 10 palm facings not included in our software, and that is fine...you can find that symbol down lower in the Symbol Palette...all the symbols are there for you to choose from...</div><div><br></div><div>But in general, 9 times out of 10, the symbols feel better directed toward the center...and are written that way naturally...as in this sign for CLOWN in the diagram below....</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-------------</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:32 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">Maybe we all have to remember that we are working with *symbols*, not with lifelike *drawings*. Then it is easier to apply the rules and understand them. - I like the explanation and examples given by Val here. They make sense.<br><br>Ingvild<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>--------</div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Dec 2, 2008, at 3:58 AM, Charles Butler wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite"><div>I have to say that I write the palms and the thumbs<br>wherever the majority of the fingers are. If I am<br>writing a squirrel opening a nut, then the fingers<br>would have to revolve all the way out, they don't stay<br>in the center of the body, they actually do travel<br>out. <br><br>Charles</div></blockquote><div><br></div>-----------<br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:signwriting@mac.com">signwriting@mac.com</a><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:21:12 -0800<br>CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com">stefanwoehrmann@googlemail.com</a><br>Subject: [sw-l] Animated GIFs of ISWA Hands, Group 1, 2 and 3...<br><br>SignWriting List<div>November 30, 2008</div><div><br><div><div><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff">On Nov 30, 2008, at 4:25 PM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:</font></span></font></div><blockquote><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; "><div lang="DE"><div class="EC_Section1"><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-GB"><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff">Just a question about 01-03-011-01 </font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff"></font></font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"></font><strong><b><span lang="EN-GB"><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff">IndexMiddleThumb Cup</font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff"></font><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff"></font></span></font></font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"></font></b></strong></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><b><span lang="EN-GB"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="EC_Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff">I cannot understand your interpretation of the palm facing the signer but thumb, index and middlefinger on the left side ...Just interested ...Stefan ;-)</font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" color="#0000ff"></font></font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"></font></span><font class="EC_Apple-style-span" size="4"></font></b></strong></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>-------</div><div><br></div><div>Hello Stefan, Adam and Everyone -</div></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your question, Stefan...and yes...frame by frame photos will be good too - I agree!</div><div><br></div><div>I suspect your question is related to the differences between the Parkhurst palm facing rules and the ISWA palm facing rules, which are different...</div><div><br></div><div>We do write differently...but we can still read each other's writing, so that is all that matters ;-))</div><div><br></div><div>In the ISWA handshapes, straight fingers, or fingers that are "up", are generally on the right side of the square when your right palm is facing you, as you have already noticed I am sure...</div><div><br></div><div>But bent or curved or angled or hinged fingers, which are pointing forward in a group, are a different group of handshapes...they follow the "Center Rule". The "Center" of the body is the focus in the ISWA...we do not have a Thumb rule...so although it may look a little funny in the Animated GIFs, because the fingers are over on the other side, when we start to write signs it definitely is the only way that feels comfortable if you are focusing on writing signs revolving around the "Center of the Body"...in the natural way that we sign...<br></div><div><br></div><div>In the ISWA I was able to clean up some of the old symbols that were not consistent with this Center Rule from years past, in older software, so if we had been consistent with the Center Rule long ago, I suspect that the Parkhurst rule about thumbs may not have been necessary...but of course we cannot go back on the past and it is all ok ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>I am planning to write a whole chapter on this in a new book I am writing on the ISWA, but tonight I need to write a grant for getting more funds for our non-profit, so I will be happy to answer more questions about this at the end of this week...and no problem at all...it is important to understand it...</div><div><br></div><div>Here is the best diagram I can show at the moment...Perhaps Adam can give you some more perspective on this...the Animated Gifs are just showing "cold" symbols, but when the symbols are used in actual writing the Center rule becomes clearer...</div><div><br></div><div>Please see attached diagram with examples of the sign for EAT and CLOWN...I am not sure if the sign for CLOWN is even correct...it may be a full C handshape instead or a spread-C perhaps, but this at least gives an example of what I mean by the fingers directed toward the Center of the body...</div><div><br></div><div><img height="720" width="710" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:50BCD210-3346-4ABA-A92A-86E785630265"></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></div></body></html>