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<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6>Hi Cherie and
everyone,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6>
Cherie, I would like to share with you. One Deaf student lived
in Africa. She didn't have her family. Canadian parents were happy
to adopt her. She moved to Canada one year ago. Deaf student who is
10 years old has no language (spoken language and sign language). She has
been learning a SW course. It seems that she understands
some different symbols. It is interesting that she looks at one SW
sign and tries to produce it. Deaf teacher answers her: you are
right. She asks her what does one sign mean? Deaf student doesn't
know it. You mentioned that students could recognize signs from the
printed form. Deaf teacher told me that Deaf students produce
inappropriately their sig language. For example, students produce a sign
for CAT and their hand moves 3 or 4 times. Deaf teacher asks them to look
at the SW movement parameter for CAT. They analyse it. they reproduce
it perfectly. Parameters help them improve their sign
language.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6> Hand
waving</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=6>
André</FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cwterp@yahoo.com href="mailto:cwterp@yahoo.com">Cherie Wren</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [sw-l] Handwriting</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,new york,times,serif">
<DIV>I used it with an ASL class... Some loved it, some hated it. The
visual learners and creative folks tended to do better with it/ like it better
than the logical / non-visual learners. I gave them a printed handout,
and taught them some basics. Some of them did use it somewhat to take
notes, but for a beginning ASL class, I think its a bit overwhelming.
They don't know enough language yet to be able to make sense of the symbols,
or recognize parameters of the signs to include in the writing. Most of
mine could recognize signs from the printed handout, and correspond that with
a sign, although they still would make parameter errors, but they could not
accurately write a sign... like what Andre and Stefan have been
saying--- you need a solid language base to be able to write this
stuff.<BR><BR>cherie<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Kimberley Shaw
<skifoot@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
SignWriting List <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, December 9, 2008 4:09:07
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [sw-l]
Handwriting<BR></FONT><BR>Hello all:<BR>but what about using handwritten SW
with *adult* students of ASL? I am<BR>about (for the first time ever!) to
teach a short class of<BR>intro-to-ASL on a college campus. Since SW has
helped me enormously<BR>with retaining new vocabulary, I hope it will help my
students as well<BR>... I'm imagining a set of "your 1st 50 ASL signs" in
flashcard<BR>format, and maybe they can transcribe from blackboard onto their
own<BR>cards (reinforce the new signs!). Or would it be more confusing
than<BR>helpful?<BR>Have any of you attempted to use SW with adult beginners
of signed languages?<BR>Best,<BR>Kim from Boston<BR><BR>On 12/8/08, Stefan
Wöhrmann <<A href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@gebaerdenschrift.de"
ymailto="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@gebaerdenschrift.de">stefanwoehrmann@gebaerdenschrift.de</A>>
wrote:<BR>> Hi Stuart,<BR>><BR>> thank you very much for your
comment. I would like to afform that I go<BR>> along with your
thoughts. One problem – I see – we would not be good<BR>> teachers if we
think to write by hand is an easy to accomplish task for<BR>> children. No
it is not true. SignWriting by hand is difficult and it takes<BR>>
many many hours of practice and a teacher who enables them to keep<BR>>
motivated. It is a time consuming and slow – and in a surrounding
where<BR>> everything and all is oriented towards spoken languge you would
not expect a<BR>> child to develop higher skills in an area if there are no
adults who really<BR>> understand ...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> And
what you suggest is a brilliant idea – we need to compare the
symbols<BR>> as they are printed with noble software – and what they look
like if written<BR>> by hand. That is the reason Valerie that I am so
interested in the first<BR>> handwritten documents – .. smile ...
just to compare the way other<BR>> handwriters tried to find their way to
write double circular movements,<BR>> hands parallel to the floor, ....
smile<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Attached another handwritten document of
a SignWriting enthusiast – smile –<BR>> next to a
railway-track<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> All the
best<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Stefan
;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> _____<BR>><BR>> Von: <A
href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu"
ymailto="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A><BR>>
[mailto:<A href="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu"
ymailto="mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>]
Im Auftrag von Stuart<BR>> Thiessen<BR>> Gesendet: Montag, 8. Dezember
2008 18:06<BR>> An: SignWriting List<BR>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l]
Handwriting<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Valerie, I understand your point
about learning to handprint before doing<BR>> cursive,
etc.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> But I still believe that one of the
barriers to acceptance of SignWriting by<BR>> some people is the fact that
it appears to be slow to write by hand. I know<BR>> that there is a long
history of writing by hand before the various programs<BR>> that we have
today. My point simply is that the information that people have<BR>> now is
focused on the computer program which is a very important element.<BR>> But
also there is a very important element of having a handwritten form
that<BR>> is simpler than the printed form and more easily
written.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> When people can see both styles of
writing (printed and written), then that<BR>> will open up new arguments
for the usefulness of SignWriting in everyday<BR>>
life.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> So, I know the ISWA has been your
priority for now, and it is an important<BR>> priority. And more is still
going on that. This is just something that will<BR>> need to be resolved at
some point.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> One suggestion I have is that
maybe at some point you introduce handwritten<BR>> forms for each of the
ISWA symbols. So a person can look up an ISWA symbol<BR>> and see both the
printed form and the handwritten form. So as they practice<BR>> on the
computer or on a piece of paper, they can learn to use and read the<BR>>
system both ways.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hebrew, for example, has the
same alphabet, but the exact form of the letter<BR>> varies depending on
which written form of Hebrew you use (Cursive, Rashi, or<BR>> the printed
form). (See the chart at<BR>> <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet"
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet</A>).<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Like you've said before, it may be that we will have different "fonts"
or<BR>> writing styles for SignWriting, but I think it will encourage
people to also<BR>> write by hand if there is a way to write it simply.
Then they start doing<BR>> grocery lists and quick notes to family and
class notes and eventually it<BR>> becomes a part of their everyday
handwriting strategies.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I admit for myself
that I rarely handwrite SignWriting because the printed<BR>> symbols just
take longer to handwrite. When I do SignWriting, it is usually<BR>> only
when I use SignPuddle. I would prefer to handwrite more, but I find my<BR>>
motivation is lower when I have to invent my own ways of writing the
printed<BR>> forms faster. So when the time comes to show handwriting, I'm
less likely to<BR>> convince them on that
front.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Just my
thoughts.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Stuart<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On Dec 8, 2008, at 10:35 , Valerie
Sutton wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> SignWriting
List<BR>><BR>> December 8, 2008<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hello
Andre -<BR>><BR>> In a SignWriting curriculum, for children, I would put
learning SW<BR>> Handwriting in the third
year...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Just as it explains on these web
pages:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> <A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/curs003.html"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/curs003.html</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
and<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> <A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/curs004.html"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/curs004.html</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
In any written form, writing in a "faster cursive style" takes skill.
Plus<BR>> SignWriting does not have the documentation ready for teaching
formal SW<BR>> Handwriting...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Therefore,
when we were young children learning to write English characters,<BR>> we
did not start by learning English cursive-handwriting...we started
with<BR>> hand-printing each English character carefully, writing them in
rows and<BR>> rows until we became
skilled...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Then, after learning how to write
in this perfect hand-printing style, after<BR>> around the second
grade...for me it was in the third grade...I started to<BR>> learn to write
real handwriting in school (for English)...so based on that<BR>>
experience, I suggest that SW handprinting should be taught the first
two<BR>> years of a SignWriting curriculum, and the SW handwriting starts
around the<BR>> third year in school...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Stefan has some experience with this...His student, Eduard, who is
writing<BR>> in the picture on the front page of our web site, is a skilled
SignWriting<BR>> student, having been in Stefan's classroom for several
years...so he started<BR>> the handwriting later, after getting familiar
with SW in general...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> So that is my
advice...Your students and teachers are beginners or at least,<BR>> in
their first year of learning and using SW, so maybe the handwriting<BR>>
should wait until next year?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> But they could
try some of these Handprinting techniques right
now:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> <A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/curs011.html"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/curs011.html</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Val ;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
----------<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
On Dec 8, 2008, at 8:05 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi Val, Anne-Claude and
everyone,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Anny, I don't ask that
you translate a SW handwriting's web pages. You<BR>> translate only
two words : handprinting and
handwriting.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I mean
that I need only a section "Quick dailly writing". I am<BR>> writing a LSQ
curriculum for a SW writing. I understand that you need to<BR>> write
new books. No problem. I am trying better to describe a
SW<BR>> handwriting (quick daily
writing).<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I believe that Deaf
students write a SW handprinting because teachers<BR>> don't know about SW
handwriting norms (Quick daily writing).<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Hand waving<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
André<BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>><BR>> From:
<mailto:<A href="mailto:signwriting@mac.com"
ymailto="mailto:signwriting@mac.com">signwriting@mac.com</A>> Valerie
Sutton<BR>><BR>> To: <mailto:<A
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu"
ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</A>>
SignWriting List<BR>><BR>> Cc: <mailto:<A
href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca"
ymailto="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</A>> Gagnon et
Thibeault<BR>><BR>> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:12
AM<BR>><BR>> Subject: Re: [sw-l]
Handwriting<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> SignWriting List<BR>><BR>>
December 8, 2008<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hello Andre and Anny
-<BR>><BR>> There is no document to translate...smile...but there are
web pages.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> If you follow all the links on this
web page:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> SignWriting
Handwriting<BR>><BR>> <<A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/</A>><BR>> <A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
There are six sections and each section has several web pages...I do
not<BR>> know if Andre really needs a translation of those web pages into
French?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> I have nothing else to give you right
now, Andre...More books on Handwriting<BR>> will have to wait for awhile,
since I am so behind on other books that need<BR>> to be
updated...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Have you seen the front page of our
web site? Stefan's Deaf student Eduard<BR>> is quite an artist with SW
calligraphy, don't you think?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> SignWriting
HomePage<BR>><BR>> <<A href="http://www.SignWriting.org"
target=_blank>http://www.SignWriting.org</A>> <A
href="http://www.SignWriting.org"
target=_blank>http://www.SignWriting.org</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Stefan will be sending us more photos of the finished art later...i
look<BR>> forward to seeing them!<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> And I
believe that Kim from Boston has also done some SW
calligraphy...<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Kim's
work<BR>><BR>> <<A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/usa/massachusetts/"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/usa/massachusetts/</A>><BR>> <A
href="http://www.signwriting.org/usa/massachusetts/"
target=_blank>http://www.signwriting.org/usa/massachusetts/</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Val ;-)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
-----------<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On Dec 8, 2008, at
6:55 AM, Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod
wrote:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
andré<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> what kind of document do you need to get
translated from english into french<BR>>
?!?!?!<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> let me
know<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Anny<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Le 8
déc. 08 à 15:43, Gagnon et Thibeault a écrit
:<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Hi Anne-Claude, Val and
everyone,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Anny, I would like you
to translate a handprinting and a handwriting<BR>> from English to
French?<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Val, I am writing a LSQ
curriculum from grade 7th to 8th including SW<BR>> reading and SW
writing now. But, I don't know about handwriting<BR>> norms. I
would like you to explain me handwriting norms in general. You<BR>>
remember that you gave a handwriting course to some participants one
year<BR>> ago. I love learning it. I don't mean that
participants do their homework<BR>> but they read only instructions.
Would you give us general explanations or<BR>> instructions of
handwriting norms which help me write and explain a LSQ<BR>> curriculum
including SW writing ? You don't need an explanation of the<BR>>
handprinting.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
Best regards,<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
André<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
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