<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<div>December 30, 2008</div><div><br></div><div>Hello Jonathan!</div><div>Thank you for your posts to the List and yes, I did receive your posts and so did the SW LIst. I am just a couple days behind and I am trying to catch up, and I certainly plan to answer your messages shortly...thanks for your input!</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding searching to see if your messages have made the List or not, you can always check the SW List Archives. Go to:</div><div><br></div><div>SW List Archives</div><div><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a></div><div><br></div><div>and click on Archive 3 or 4...there are several ways of searching for your messages...by date, or author or subject matter...it is a great tool and you will find your messages there...</div><div><br></div><div>So at the moment the List software seems to be working...it is just Val who can't work fast enough - ha!</div><div><br></div><div>So now it is my turn to answer you and it is coming shortly - thanks for writing once again -</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-------</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 30, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Jonathan y Yolaine wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Hi Val,<br> I sent these emails to the list. I don't know if you saw them or not. Please let me know. They came in to me right away but as there have been some problems with the list in the past I just wanted to ask.<br><br>Jonathan<br><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Jonathan <<a href="mailto:duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca">duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">December 29, 2008 10:50:21 AM PST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [sw-l] Handwriting: Val's Shorthand Suggestions</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><br><br><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><br><br>Valerie Sutton wrote:<blockquote cite="mid:63F668B7-298E-4B33-9B3F-B600CA83DABC@mac.com" type="cite">SignWriting List<br>December 22, 2008<br><br>Hello Sandy!<br>Thank you for this email...my answers are in-between your paragraphs below ;-)<br><br>Sandy Fleming wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">I've tried writing with these "shorthand" suggestions and I too, love<br>it! This seems to bring the feel of SignWriting much closer to the feel<br>of writing rather than drawing to me. The signs are written more simply<br>so that once I've written one a few times it becomes much easier to<br>write it again without having to think about how it's made.<br></blockquote><br><br>Wonderful! I am glad to hear this Sandy!<br><br>In the 1970s and 1980s we had real success with the Shorthand, not only for SignWriting but for DanceWriting too. As you know, I taught DanceWriting at the Boston Conservatory of Music Dance Department from 1976-1981, and it was a requirement of all Freshmen to learn DanceWriting. I had 25 to 50 students in one classroom at a time, and I would ask all of them to sit on the floor with rolls of paper and to write "what they saw", looking at a dancer, without looking down at their hands...I taught them a very specific system that was written in two textbooks of mine...Dance Writing Shorthand for Classical Ballet and DanceWriting Shorthand for Modern and Jazz Dance, and people really learned a systematic way of writing dance by hand...this was then applied to writing SignWriting Shorthand, and that book was written in 1981 I believe...we did hundreds of signs in a dictionary written in the shorthand in that textbook, and it is from that book that Dr. Karen van Hoek started to use the Shorthand as a handwriting and insisted back around year 2000 that we officially make the shorthand, the SW cursive handwriting...and it is really my fault that we did not do it immediately...as we have recently discussed here, I felt like other things took priority, and also the old Shorthand book only has the symbols related to how we wrote in the 1980s, so the book would need to be expanded to fit with the writing in 2009...but if you are interested, here on the SW List, to help me, I could scan in one page at a time of the old Shorthand book and we could all read it together and then adapt it together to fit our modern times? If you are game, I am...we could do two pages a week or something like that...<br></blockquote> Hi Val,<br> I think that it's a great idea. I was about to volunteer to offer to clean up and put the scanned pages together into a PDF for you so that you can post it on your web site. I am still offering. Then we would have the old Shorthand book for historical and inspirational reasons. That's if you could scan it all and send it to me. Even if you don't have time to scan it all at once, it would be ok. Does the handbook have many pages?<br><br> I am game to help with the shorthand. 1 a page or 2 a week should be fine. Slow and steady wins the race !!!<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><br><br> For the last year, I have been drawing and signwriting most of my sign related notes. But recently, I´ve caught myself glossing instead because it is so much faster for me. I strongly agree withe others on the list that is is important to be able to write signwriting at a decent pace. This would make it so much more useful than it already is.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br> I mentioned the Shorthand to my wife. She didn't know what it was about, then when I explained it to her, she said that would be happy that I learn.<span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>:-)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><br> I guess she finds I take a lot of time when I do my signwriting!!!<span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>:-)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span><br><br> Of course, I wouldn't need true Shorthand, what Dr. Karen van Hoek suggested sounds like a very good idea to me. To use Shorthand like writing to improve the speed of writing. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br> When do we start?<br><br>Jonathan<br><br>Sandy wrote....(see Val's comments below)...<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><blockquote cite="mid:63F668B7-298E-4B33-9B3F-B600CA83DABC@mac.com" type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br>I've attached an attempt at writing a brief anecdote that runs in my<br>family. Since it's not "phonetic" as SignWriting usually is and it's in<br>BSL, you may have some difficulty with it, so I'll go through it here.<br><br>The larger sign on the left says "elephant", which is my title for the<br>story.<br><br>Sign-for-sign, it then goes like this:<br><br>aLongTimeAgo Scotland h-a-w-i-c-k | cousin me | andUncle me | street<br>justWalkingAlong || circus carnivalComingTowardsThem<br>bothWatchingItGoingBy finish || uncle askChild elephant didYouSee? ||<br>cousinLooksUpAtHim elephant what? ||<br><br>Or in English:<br><br>A long time ago in Hawick in Scotland my cousin and uncle were walking<br>along the street when a circus carnival came by. They watched it passing<br>and when it was gone my uncle asked my cousin, "Did you see the<br>elephant?" He said, "What elephant?"<br><br>Some notes on the writing:<br><br>elephant: the handshape here is a full "C" without the palm drawn. I<br>hope this is clear enough for someone who's used to it.<br><br>h-a-w-i-c-k: When signing with someone at a bar I noticed how she was<br>holding her drink in one hand and doing two-handed fingerspelling with<br>her free hand only. It occurred to me that you often see this and it<br>might be a good way of writing two-handed fingerspelling in a simpler<br>way that still makes sense to native BSLers. Combining this with Val's<br>suggestion of not writing the palms, this is the result. I've sometimes<br>written both hands when that emphasises the connection with the Latin<br>letter, as for "K" in this word.<br><br>andUncle: the single head nod which sometimes means "and" I've written<br>without the arrowhead. I've been doing this for a long time for head<br>nods and shakes.<br><br>street: I perhaps wrote this sign too quickly as it's a bit out of<br>shape! it's two "American-H" hands written with the palms because the<br>orientation is unusual so I felt it had to be indicated.<br><br>justWalkingAlong: I've missed out the arrowheads again, this time for<br>the "relaxed pout" on the mouth indicating that the walk is "as normal".<br>The half-arrowhead is horizontal, but if I'd been more careful it would<br>have been diagonal!<br><br>circus: I hope this is clear, it's supposed to be twisting three curved<br>fingers (thumb, index and middle) about the nose like a clown nose.<br><br>carnivalComingTowardsUs: again, I wrote the palms because I felt the<br>orientation was unusual.<br><br>bothWatchingItGoingBy: for a while now I've just repeated arrowheads to<br>indicate repeated movements, so this arrow is swept through three times,<br>in BSL indicating an activity that went on for some time.<br><br>finish: the two little lines are thumbs; the arrows are supposed to be<br>moving upwards but I didn't draw them doubled; I didn't worry so much<br>about clarity because this sign is used very frequently and couldn't be<br>mistaken for anything else.<br><br>what: again, I've missed the arrowheads as this shaking from side to<br>side movement should be clear enough to BSLers.<br><br>Will everybody be able to see this? What's best to submit graphics in,<br>PNG, GIF or JPEG?<br><br>Sandy Fleming<br></blockquote><br>------<br><br>Val finishes:<br><br>WOW! This is amazingly close to what the sw shorthand looks like back in the 1980s...you just made my heart sing!<br><br>I have to go out for an appointment right now, but when I come back, I will try to give you some feedback on the symbols in the Shorthand and you will see that your writing and our Shorthand are very close...<br><br>I only wish I could find Karen van Hoek...Karen - if you are out there, please write to us...you have so much skill with using Shorthand as a daily writing system...<br><br>I have been searching for Karen for some time ..... so if anyone knows how to contact Karen please tell me!<br><br>We miss you Karen - Lucinda O'Grady Batch asked me about you the other day and sends her love to you...<br><br>So later I will write again, Sandy, to show you how similar signs would be written in the Shorthand and you will see it is close...congratulations on picking this up so quickly and thank you too, for taking the time...I really appreciate it ;-))<br><br>Val ;-)<br><br>Sandy's diagram attached:<br><br><br><hr size="4" width="90%"><br><center><img height="720" width="653" src="cid:part1.00040807.05020206@yahoo.ca"></center><p><br></p><pre wrap=""><hr size="4" width="90%">
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</pre></blockquote><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br><br>Change Email Settings<br>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</div></span><br><br><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Jonathan <<a href="mailto:duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca">duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">December 29, 2008 10:50:28 AM PST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [sw-l] New attempt at a favicon for signwriting</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><br><br><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">Hi Val,<br> I think it looks good. How many variations do you have so far?<br><br>Jonathan<br><br>Valerie Sutton wrote:<blockquote cite="mid:1D62D1E0-2806-4A8F-91FA-77ED4C7B5A65@mac.com" type="cite">On Dec 22, 2008, at 5:22 PM, KJ wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">I actually prefer it without the yellow background and with the two arrows... or perhaps the zig-zag movement that you use for your namesign, Val? That feels more like "write" to me...<br>KJ<br></blockquote><br>ok - how about this? I fit it!<br><br><br><hr size="4" width="90%"><br><center><img height="36" width="229" src="cid:part1.04030005.03070508@yahoo.ca"></center><p><br></p><pre wrap=""><hr size="4" width="90%">
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</pre></blockquote><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br>http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br><br>Change Email Settings<br>http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</div></span><br><br><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Jonathan <<a href="mailto:duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca">duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">December 29, 2008 10:50:42 AM PST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><a href="mailto:sandy@scotstext.org">sandy@scotstext.org</a>, "SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>[sw-l] Dot for symbol orientation</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.5);"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">"SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></span></div><br><br><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Times; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">Hi Sandy,<br><br>Sandy Fleming wrote:<blockquote cite="mid:1230113587.7614.0.camel@localhost.localdomain" type="cite"><pre wrap="">André,
Well, the point of the "horseshoe" method was to avoid two unnecessary
corners in the handshape and so make it faster and easier to write. The
fact that "fist" handshapes then become less symmetrical and can then be
written without forearms is just a bonus.
The "circle" hand is already round and making it less symmetrical would
probably make it harder to write. I really can't think of a solution
that's any better than just writing the forearms as is already done.
I remember Val saying some time ago that the symmetry of some handshapes
was a problem for typists: it was easy to forget which orientation was
being used while typing. What I suggested was that a small round dot or
similar mark be drawn by the software at the wrist, so as to show the
orientation. Typists would just see a slight bump at the middle of the
base of the handshape so that they'd be able to see the orientation, and
it would be part of the font, the typist wouldn't have to actually type
it and the reader would see it in every handshape. This would make the
forearms unnecessary in computer SignWriting, as you're asking.
</pre></blockquote> I think that a small round dot where the forearms contact the hand is a great idea too. It would keeping the data entry straight, which will be important if someone wants to analyze the signs' symbol rotations at a latter time.<br> I had thought of including a feature like that in my program but I will have to be for a future version.<br><br>Jonathan<br><blockquote cite="mid:1230113587.7614.0.camel@localhost.localdomain" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Orientation isn't difficult to follow when handwriting so in handwriting
this wouldn't be needed, and for a few signs involving the circle hand,
the writer might want to add forearms if required for clarity.
Sandy
On Sun, 2008-12-21 at 14:29 -0500, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Hi Sandy, Val and everyone,
Val, I will send you one page by fax today.
Sandy, You gave us an example of COFFEE. It is a wonderful idea . I
would like you to show us how to signwrite an orientation of the hand in
round without forearms. When Val posts it on the SW-list, you see my
attached diagram.
</pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
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