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Hi all,<br><br>I hereby humbly retract from my former position about writing the invisible person: if the grammatical markers etc. are there as they should be in real language writing, then the writing should contain what is visible, not that which is not visible. - I have discussed this with native signers, and am fully content with this understanding of how to write. I also agree with Val that this shows the importance of writing the language, and not just glosses or some other 'easy way out'.<br><br>Ingvild
<br><br><br><br>> From: sutton@signwriting.org<br>> To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:14:22 -0700<br>> <br>> SignWriting List<br>> September 21, 2009<br>> <br>> Hello Natasha, and everyone -<br>> Yes. This is a good point. I was answering a specific question about <br>> how to write one or two signs, but it was taken from a much larger <br>> document that was a transcription from a videotape of ASL <br>> storytelling...so you are right that if the ASL is written accurately <br>> before those signs occurred in the document, there would be eye-gaze <br>> and other ASL grammar details that would automatically give the reader <br>> the markers needed to read the ASL, just as the ASL is understood in <br>> person...the "invisible person" would be established with eyegaze and <br>> other factors...<br>> <br>> And Ingvild, I agree that this shows the value of writing sign <br>> languages, because we are required to write these grammar details to <br>> make sure the reader knows what is happening...just as individual <br>> words in a spoken language document can be taken out of context, so <br>> can individual signs...we need to read the whole document to know what <br>> is being said...<br>> <br>> Thanks for the great discussion! Val ;-)<br>> <br>> -------<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Natasha Escalada-Westland wrote:<br>> <br>> > Wouldn't the "invisible" person have already been mentioned or <br>> > implied by the eye-gaze of the signer slightly previously in the <br>> > story? If these subtleties are missed by the translator, it would <br>> > appear strange or incomplete(invisible) to someone reading it later.<br>> ><br>> > Natasha Escalada-Westland, M.Ed. (D/HH), Certified Interpreter - NIC<br>> ><br>> > --------<br>> <br>> <br>> > From: iroald@hotmail.com<br>> > To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> > Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> > Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 04:57:06 +0200<br>> ><br>> > This is something I will have to discuss with my Deaf friends<br>> ><br>> > Ingvild<br>> ><br>> > -------<br>> <br>> ><br>> > Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:43:46 -0700<br>> > From: chazzer3332000@yahoo.com<br>> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> > To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> ><br>> > There are, in fact, comic books in Brazil that are being captioned <br>> > in Sign Writing, so perhaps that is the end result, one ends up <br>> > having a captioned story of several people, but not the natural <br>> > language which tells stories by body postures.<br>> ><br>> > If one is talking about a bowl of soup, for instance, one can set up <br>> > the bowl, hold it in place with one hand, and add all sorts of <br>> > ingredients, but there is not an "invisible" bowl hanging there, it <br>> > is a placeholder created by one's hand.<br>> ><br>> > Charles<br>> ><br>> > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Cherie Wren <cwterp@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>> ><br>> > From: Cherie Wren <cwterp@yahoo.com><br>> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> > To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br>> > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 3:33 PM<br>> ><br>> > You are no longer showing the language when you do this, though. <br>> > Now you are creating some sort of pictorial story in a strange set <br>> > of symbols, but it is not sign language anymore. If that is your <br>> > aim, then get an artist to do a picture-story/comic book.<br>> ><br>> > cherie<br>> ><br>> > From: Charles Butler <chazzer3332000@yahoo.com><br>> > To: SignWriting List <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br>> > Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 10:46:03 AM<br>> > Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> ><br>> > I would have to agree, one could show two people on the road as an <br>> > interpreter, or one could show two people as a language, which means <br>> > the interpreter is not the person being conveyed, but the two people <br>> > he or she is talking about.<br>> ><br>> > An interpreter can convey by posture that there are three people <br>> > present, but if one writes out the story, one can flesh out the <br>> > details and actually show the three people involved, putting each of <br>> > them in a different lane, just as one one in Dance Writing.<br>> ><br>> > --- On Fri, 9/18/09, Ingvild Roald <iroald@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>> ><br>> > From: Ingvild Roald <iroald@hotmail.com><br>> > Subject: RE: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> > To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> > Date: Friday, September 18, 2009, 10:37 AM<br>> ><br>> > Actually, I do not agree with Val that the job is to write what is <br>> > seen on the video. That will not get the message of the original <br>> > story across. This is maybe one of the reasons we really need to <br>> > sign languages: that the video translation is not a full translation <br>> > form English (or Greek) to ASL, but a partial one. With the written <br>> > form, we are able to bring in the second person, not visible in the <br>> > video.<br>> ><br>> > Thus, I prefer the first version, with the 'invisible' person present<br>> ><br>> > Ingvild<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > > From: sutton@signwriting.org<br>> > > To: sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> > > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:20:23 -0700<br>> > > CC: josignj@aol.com<br>> > > Subject: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...<br>> > ><br>> > > SignWriting List<br>> > > September 16, 2009<br>> > ><br>> > > On Sep 15, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:<br>> > > > I am watching a video (if you can see the video it is the Bible,<br>> > > > Mark 07_31-37 at .43 on the counter). Jesus is healing a Deaf/Mute<br>> > > > man. -- First Jesus sticks his fingers into the mans ears and then<br>> > > > removes them.---- So how do I show to whom Jesus to doing this <br>> > to...<br>> > ><br>> > > Hello Jonita and everyone -<br>> > > You are writing from an ASL videotape that Deaf Missions made of the<br>> > > Bible. The signer is Patrick Graybill, and he did an excellent<br>> > > description of Jesus placing his index fingers in a Deaf man's <br>> > ears to<br>> > > heal him...when he signed this story, Patrick did not have a real<br>> > > person to place his index fingers into...he had to show this story <br>> > in<br>> > > ASL, without anyone else standing in front of him...<br>> > ><br>> > > So your job is to try to write what you see Patrick do on the <br>> > video...<br>> > ><br>> > > Everyone sees things a little differently, but here is my writing of<br>> > > this position and movement, plus attached are clips from the video <br>> > of<br>> > > Patrick...<br>> > ><br>> > > How did I write this?<br>> > ><br>> > > 1. First I place the shoulders and head facing the left front corner<br>> > ><br>> > > 2. Second, I write the hands in the sign over to the left side of <br>> > the<br>> > > head and shoulders, like this:<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> ><br>> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________<br>> ><br>> > SW-L SignWriting List<br>> ><br>> > Post Message<br>> > SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> ><br>> > List Archives and Help<br>> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br>> ><br>> > Change Email Settings<br>> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________<br>> ><br>> > SW-L SignWriting List<br>> ><br>> > Post Message<br>> > SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> ><br>> > List Archives and Help<br>> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br>> ><br>> > Change Email Settings<br>> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ____________________________________________<br>> ><br>> > SW-L SignWriting List<br>> ><br>> > Post Message<br>> > SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> ><br>> > List Archives and Help<br>> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br>> ><br>> > Change Email Settings<br>> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ____________________________________________<br>> <br>> SW-L SignWriting List<br>> <br>> Post Message<br>> SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br>> <br>> List Archives and Help<br>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/<br>> <br>> Change Email Settings<br>> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l<br>> <br> </body>
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