<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<div>October 22, 2009</div><div><br></div><div>Hello Tini!</div><div>Thank you for this lovely message, and for your kind words...I am so happy to know that your dance students are enjoying DanceWriting...</div><div><br></div><div>I guess, by reading your message, I can see I was wrong to say we met in 1970 in Copenhagen...It sounds like we met in Copenhagen in 1974, when I returned to Denmark to teach the Royal Danish Ballet in DanceWriting, with my new book...which was written in 1973...</div><div><br></div><div>Did you know that people can still buy that old book? <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Sutton-Movement-Shorthand-Book-One/dp/0914336010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256222326&sr=1-1">On Amazon.com...</a>But it is really only for history now...since the system has changed so much since 1974!</div><div><br></div><div>So you used the Benesh Dance Notation System (Choreology) before? It is a good system too ;-))</div><div><br></div><div>There are hundreds of dance notation systems in the world...Labanotation was, in those days, the most used, and Benesh was number 2...I am hoping that maybe later, DanceWriting might catch on again, after SignWriting is so spread that I am not needed any longer and I can write a new textbook on DanceWriting - ha!</div><div><br></div><div>No matter what, Tini, I thank you for bringing back such lovely memories...</div><div><br></div><div>Please send my best wishes to Henk too...</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-----------</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 22, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Tini Pel wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Yes Valerie, I have found memories from the 3 high upstairs ballet studio in Copenhagen.<br><br>I have a signed copy of your Dance writing book. I was using Benish at that time and when I saw yours I was right away taken in with it because of it's clear straight forward figures on paper. I have sat behind several choreographers notating on your Sutton table when there was no portable affordable video machines available.<br>I am forever thankful for the opportunity to learn Sutton Dance Writing. It is easy to teach it to children as they love to draw stick figures and let them dance.<br>Than you Valerie,<br><br>Tini.<br><br><br><br><br>On 21-Oct-09, at 1:19 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">SignWriting List<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">October 21, 2009<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Actually Tini and I knew each other since Copenhagen in 1970...isn't that right Tini? We knew each other before the first book in DanceWriting was published in 1973.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Did we really meet in 1978, Charles? I thought it was in the early 1980's. Because I did not start working in the true sense, with SignWriting, until 1981. In 1978, we did have correspondence courses in DanceWriting from the Boston Conservatory of Music and Tini was one of our students. But the SignWriter Newspaper was first published in 1981, and I thought that was how we met, Charles? So I thought it was around 1981 or 1982...but my memory is poor too! funny isn't it..we are all getting old!<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And DanceWriting can be seen as receptive, but actually it is neither receptive nor expressive. DanceWriting is taken from the "stage view" and adjusts to many viewpoints depending on the choice of the writer...So Tini is correct that it can be written expressively and if that is what you are doing Tini, that is fine!<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Anyway, there is no question that the writing system can technically be written from any viewpoint, but Gerard is correct. We have a world standard when it comes to SignWriting and we need that for most teachers, who are sooo busy and can only handle so much...so when we teach SignWriting today, we teach the Expressive. That is what is natural to most people. Most people are not writing from videotape. They are writing directly in their own sign language...their daily primary language, and they look at their own hands and feel their own face, and do not put themselves in the position of an imaginary person facing them...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">So everyone is welcome to teach as they wish, but Maria, if i were you, I personally suggest teaching in the Expressive for SignWriting...I would not throw both viewpoints at beginning students...it is too much for them -<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Val ;-)<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-------<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Tini Pel wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">You might be right at that Charles about 1978. I sometimes do get mixed up about dates in my old age.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Tini.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On 21-Oct-09, at 9:25 AM, Charles Butler wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Ah, that's a bit of information I have not had, as I learned from Valerie directly between 1978 and 1981. We both were switching over to expressive at that point.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Charles<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--- On Wed, 10/21/09, Tini Pel <<a href="mailto:tinipel@onlink.net">tinipel@onlink.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: Tini Pel <<a href="mailto:tinipel@onlink.net">tinipel@onlink.net</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: "SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 9:04 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hi Charles,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Just a little note:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I write dance writing being behind the dancer, or I become the dancer. Since the early ' 70-tees.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Have a great day<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">L.I.F.E.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Tini.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On 20-Oct-09, at 11:37 PM, Charles Butler wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">For me, I learned receptive first, so it was literally "write what you see" when you are seeing someone else's hands. Then when they switched, I considered it an extension. I just teach "write what you see". Then receptive is for transcribing something brand new if you don't know the meaning, and then expressive when you have moved it to your own hands. Expressive has become the standard for the dictionaries and most usage. Dance writing is still, apparently, receptive. It took me hours to transcribe video tape because I think to write what someone else is doing, and then reverse it to my hands is the challenge.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Charles<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--- On Tue, 10/20/09, MARIA AZZOPARDI <<a href="mailto:maria.azzopardi@um.edu.mt">maria.azzopardi@um.edu.mt</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">From: MARIA AZZOPARDI <<a href="mailto:maria.azzopardi@um.edu.mt">maria.azzopardi@um.edu.mt</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Subject: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To: "SignWriting List" <<a href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 5:13 PM<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hi all,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I was wondering what to do with the receptive and expressive view points,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">when teaching signwriting.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">As teachers of signwriting, would you include this explanation - or would<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">presenting the two possibilities create a problem that might not be there.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I've found that when I explain how to signwrite the different orientations<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I explain the 'expressive viewpt' and never include the receptive view, so<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">as not to 'teach' them something that I will later have to unteach.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">do you find that explaining the expressive view and leaving out the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">'receptive' writing, acceptable?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote 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