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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You can always hit reply and highlight the text and change it to
black. As well as copy and paste in a word doc and change to black. See below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu
[mailto:sw-l-bounces@majordomo.valenciacc.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Trevor
Jenkins<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 29, 2009 6:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> SignWriting List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>True Gerard I do have reasonable
eye sight but I also have dyslexia and bright yellow on white makes it
impossible for me to read that text.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen <<a
href="mailto:gerard.meijssen@gmail.com">gerard.meijssen@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hoi,<br>
You are blessed with the eye sight that makes this yellow and huge. Some people
have a visual impairment and for them this is how they CAN communicate. I think
we are blessed that Gagnon makes the effort to reach out. He does validly and
materially contribute. <br>
<br>
I agree that <span style='background:yellow'>YELLOW and BIG</span> is not
pleasant and I hope you will agree with me that once you know why it is easily
overcome.<br>
Thanks,<br>
Gerard<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>2009/11/29 Trevor Jenkins <<a
href="mailto:bslwannabe@gmail.com" target="_blank">bslwannabe@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Sorry Gagnon iI can't read this! Huge text and yellow font
... yuck.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault <<a
href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca" target="_blank">atg@videotron.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone</span></b><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> A Deaf teacher and I have been working on a
Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ) dictionary for one month now. The Deaf
teacher has been testing if Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without
alphabetic orders in the dictionary.</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> It seems that it works well because Deaf
children who have difficulties to read a written French can directly find a
written LSQ to help them find a French word in the dictionary.</span></b><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Charles mentioned that handshape orders are
“index finger”, “index & middle finger”,
“index finger, middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”,
“four fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”,
“thumb & ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”,
and “thumb & fist”. I focus on “Index
Finger”. You will see the attached ISWA. The Index Finger has 13
different handshapes from ISWA in the world. However, the Index Finger of the
LSQ has only 5 different handshapes.</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> In addition, you will see the attached location
orders. Location orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk &
leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5) neutral space. If you look up a written LSQ in
the dictionary, you must think from the high level of location to the low level
of location. Contact symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth
interact with a specific area of the body. If the hand or the finger
touches the nose, you look up quickly a head location order. For example,
if a signer produces BELIEVE (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front:
you look up a “head” location order. Another example, if the
signer produces SHOW (ASL), the index finger of the right hand touches the palm
of the left hand. You look up a hand location order. If the signer
produces ONE (ASL), the index finger is the front of the shoulder without
contact symbols. You look up a last (neutral space) location order.</span></b><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> You will see the attached SW orders. You
will find a first page. You look up index finger and location orders. EYE
(LSQ) is a highest level of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH
(LSQ) than a high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the
head for TO SAY (LSQ).</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Trevor, if the signer who uses a British manual
alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand
touches the thumb of the left hand (handshape 5). You look up an index
finger order and a hand location order in the BSL dictionary. If the
signer produces “I” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand
touches the tip of the middle finger of the left hand (handshape 5). You
look up an index finger order and a hand location order. You will see the
attached SW orders (page 21).</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> We will adjust and test the LSQ
dictionary. We are still working on it. If Trevor,
Charles or everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW)
conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your own
sign language in the dictionary.</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> Best regards,</span></b><span style='color:
black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'> André</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid yellow 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:christophermiller@mac.com"
target="_blank" title="christophermiller@mac.com">Christopher Miller</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank"
title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cc:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:christophermiller@mac.com" target="_blank"
title="christophermiller@mac.com">Christopher Miller</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, November
26, 2009 1:05 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [sw-l] Ordering
Signs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Just a short note about the origin of standard
alphabetical order: it actually descends from one of two orders used in the
ancient Ugaritic alphabet ca 14th century BCE. (Scroll down to "Alphabetic
order" at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki</a>/Alphabet.)
The order has been kept overall in all the non-Indic descendants of the West
Semitic alphabets except for the reformed Arabic alphabet, which nevertheless
kept it for letters used as numerals like the way we use a, b, c... in lists.
The chart from the primer that you cite is rather ingenious in the way it tries
to shoehorn the alphabetically ordered letters into aligning by place of
articulation but nearly as many letters fall through the cracks as fit into the
arrangement. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Using conventional alphabetic orders for the handshapes of
different sign languages, following the handshape-letter pairings in various
manual alphabets, has the advantage (in each sign language) of using an order
familiar from the surrounding written version of the spoken language, but there
are always more handshapes than those in the manual alphabet, and the ones in
the manual alphabet are not all necessarily used in signs themselves, as
opposed to representing written letters for fingerspelling. And, in two-handed
alphabets like the British manual alphabet or other older ones used in Italy,
Indonesia or North America, a printed letter does not usually correspond to a
single given handshape and vice versa. ANd of course, there are many more
symbols apart from handshapes in any system for writing or notating signs,
whether Signwriting, Stokoe, Hamnosys or any other: locations, movements
etc. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So whatever the system, the best choice is to base the
collation order on aspects of the actual structure of the handshapes and other
structural elements used to make signs. Still, once you start on this basis,
there are lots of choices, some of them essentially arbitrary, as to what
groups of symbols, and what symbols within these groups, should be placed in
what order. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 2009-11-26, at 12:10 PM, Charles Butler wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I understand your concern that SW is too young to mandate an
order as it may grow linguistically for some situations. However, the
groups of handshapes are by fingers used, so though they are also ASL numbers,
they are based on which fingers are being used in a sign, which makes them very
useful in clustering signs together that all use the "index finger",
the "index and middle finger", the "index finger, middle, and
thumb", the "four fingers", "the four fingers and
thumb", "the thumb and small finger", the "thumb and ring
finger", the "thumb and index finger" and the
"thumb/fist". <br>
<br>
One can cluster in any number of ways. Just as aside, the Roman Alphabet
is thought to have been based on a primer<br>
<br>
A B C D <br>
E F G H<br>
I J<br>
K L<br>
M N<br>
O P Q R<br>
S<br>
T<br>
U V W X Y<br>
Z<br>
<br>
There are missing sounds, but a grid in order of vowels, bilabials, gutterals,
dentals, and liquids seems to work for me.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'>-- <br>
Regards, Trevor.<br>
<br>
<>< Re: deemed!<br>
</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Regards, Trevor.<br>
<br>
<>< Re: deemed!<o:p></o:p></p>
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