<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>I am still confused. I understand your going with Location first, I tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index finger together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down, that's the only apparent difference. Neutral or hand contact seems to happen much more in ASL than LSQ.<br><br>Charles<br><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Gagnon et Thibeault <atg@videotron.ca><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs<br></font><br>
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<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">Hi Charles and
everyone,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> Charles,
you are right. You will see the attached "head"
orders.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">
Regards,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">
André</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(255, 255, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">Charles Butler</a> </div>
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<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs</div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,<br><br>The first four
entries seem to be by head. Is that intentional? I was trying to
follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and using handshape as
the first entry, and then location, the first four signs would follow
differently. The way you placed the BSL sign language I agree with, I'm
just trying to understand your system.<br><br>Charles Butler<br><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">
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<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Valerie Sutton
<sutton@signwriting.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List
<sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21
PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l]
Ordering Signs<br></font><br>SignWriting List<br>November 30,
2009<br><br>Hello Andre!<br>I feel soooo happy to receive this message from
you. What a remarkable message this is. Very few people in the history of
SignWriting can provide information on testing how Deaf children look up
signs, by Sign Symbols, in dictionaries written in SignWriting. That is
because very few people have classrooms of Deaf children fluent in
SignWriting, and your classroom in French-Canada, using LSQ, is one of those
historic places, that we can point to, when discussing the theories on
sign-symbol-searches.<br><br>Of course there are classrooms around the world
using SignWriting...Stefan Woehrmann's classroom in Germany, for example, and
classrooms in Nicaragua and Belgium and Brazil and other countries...and they
are all doing wonderful work...<br><br>Have any other teachers tested how Deaf
children look up signs in dictionaries without using any spoken language? Just
searching for signs sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence (alphabetical order of
SignWriting symbols)? If so, please tell us how it worked for your
students...<br><br>I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010, to improve our
printed dictionaries...and then distribute the printed dictionaries to groups
of signers to see if they can find signs in those printed dictionaries, sorted
by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't started yet...<br><br>I can see,
Andre, that you have already started such a project and I am very interested
to read your results...I will save this message to refer to later...and THANK
YOU for sharing with us...<br><br>What excites me the most, is that you have
found that it is beneficial for your Deaf students, to use SignWriting in
dictionaries. That is meaningful, to know that SignWriting is making a
difference in people's lives...If it can help some Deaf children to learn how
to use dictionaries, that is wonderful.<br><br>Out of the 13 different
handshapes listed in Group 1 of the ISWA, LSQ (Quebec Sign Language) only uses
5 out of the 13 handshapes...The International SignWriting Alphabet was never
meant to be used in its entirety by all sign languages...We all assume that
each sign language will only use some of the symbols in the ISWA, just as the
full IPA is not used to write this message in English...<br><br>So I look
forward to learning more about your project, Andre -<br><br>Thanks again for
your sharing with us -<br><br>Val ;-)<br><br>--------------------<br><br>On
Nov 29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:<br><br>> Hi Trevor,
Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone<br>> <br>> A Deaf
teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ)
dictionary for one month now. The Deaf teacher has been testing if Deaf
children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic orders in the
dictionary.<br>> <br>> It seems that it works well because
Deaf children who have difficulties to read a written French can directly find
a written LSQ to help them find a French word in the dictionary.<br>>
<br>> Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index
finger”, “index & middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”,
“four fingers”, “four fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”, “thumb
& ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”, and “thumb & fist”.
I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see the attached ISWA. The Index
Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA in the world. However, the Index
Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different handshapes.<br>> <br>>
In addition, you will see the attached location orders. Location
orders have 5 parts: 1) head & neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand,
5) neutral space. If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you
must think from the high level of location to the low level of location.
Contact symbols which include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a
specific area of the body. If the hand or the finger touches the nose,
you look up quickly a head location order. For example, if a signer
produces BELIEVE (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up
a “head” location order. Another example, if the signer produces SHOW
(ASL), the index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand.
You look up a hand location order. If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the
index finger is the front of the shoulder without contact symbols.
You look up a last (neutral space) location order.<br>> <br>>
You will see the attached SW orders. You will find a first
page. You look up index finger and location orders. EYE (LSQ) is a
highest level of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH (LSQ) than a
high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the head for TO SAY
(LSQ).<br>> <br>> Trevor, if the signer who uses a British
manual alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches
the thumb of the left hand (handshape 5). You look up an index finger
order and a hand location order in the BSL dictionary. If the signer
produces “I” (BSL), the index finger of the right hand touches the tip of the
middle finger of the left hand (handshape 5). You look up an index
finger order and a hand location order. You will see the attached SW orders
(page 21).<br>> <br>> We will adjust and test the LSQ
dictionary. We are still working on it. If Trevor, Charles or
everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW) conference, we will be happy
to teach him/her how to look up quickly your own sign language in the
dictionary.<br>> <br>> Best regards,<br>> <br>>
André<br>> <br>><br><br></div></div></div>
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