<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>This is a fascinating discussion. I can understand that one needs to have a clear test group, like the kids, and finding a way to show them where each handshape fits into the system at a glance is necessary. One needs to show the whole of Group 1, etc, not just the first handshape in a group, but then have an order to them, which is still under discussion.<br><br>Charles<br><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Gagnon et Thibeault <atg@videotron.ca><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List
<sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, December 1, 2009 9:27:58 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs<br></font><br>
<style></style>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">Hi Trevor and
everyone,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> You are right that handshape would be
more important than location. I thought that Charles wanted to discuss
about a "specific head". (he wrote: The first-four entries seem to be by head,
is that intentional?) I showed him the attached specific head
orders. I answered him: you are right. However, I
misunderstood.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> I would like to inform you that it is
not easy to find the primary handshape. Deaf children couldn't remember
everything about the primary handshape 1- 10. For example, in what group
of the primary handshape do you find IDEA (ASL)? Deaf children had to
check each primary handshape 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. They found group 6. They
didn't like to look for IDEA for a long time. I tried to help them find
the primary handshape quickly on the first front page in the dictionary.
You will see the attached group 1-6.<br> They were happy to look at the
first front page. They quickly went to Group 6 "thumb &
small finger". </font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> Regards,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> André</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(255, 255, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="bslwannabe@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:bslwannabe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bslwannabe@gmail.com">Trevor
Jenkins</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:03
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs</div>
<div><br></div>Isn't the primacy of location an influence taken from Stokoe
notation with the region of the signing space being location signified first
before hand-shape, movement or orientation. Because of "degrees of meaning" it
is permissible to retain the meaning of a sign while placing it elsewhere in
the signing space. So like you, Charles, I'd go with handshape as the primary
indexer for a dictionary. Handshape would be <i>more</i> important than
location. I'd likent location as the primary indexer as equivalent to
organising an English dictionary by upper case letters first then lower
case.<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Charles Butler <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I am still confused. I understand your going with Location first,
I tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index
finger together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down,
that's the only apparent difference. Neutral or hand contact seems to
happen much more in ASL than LSQ.<br><br>Charles<br><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Gagnon et Thibeault
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:atg@videotron.ca" target="_blank" href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca">atg@videotron.ca</a>>
<div class="im"><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
SignWriting List <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br></div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27 AM
<div class="im"><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[sw-l] Ordering Signs<br></div></font><br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5">
<div><b><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">Hi Charles and
everyone,</font></b></div>
<div><b><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></b> </div>
<div><b><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> Charles,
you are right. You will see the attached "head"
orders.</font></b></div>
<div><b><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></b> </div>
<div><b><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">
Regards,</font></b></div>
<div><b><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></b> </div>
<div><b><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">
André</font></b></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(255, 255, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">Charles Butler</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02 PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs</div>
<div><b><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></b><b><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></b><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,<br><br>The first
four entries seem to be by head. Is that intentional? I was
trying to follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and
using handshape as the first entry, and then location, the first four
signs would follow differently. The way you placed the BSL sign
language I agree with, I'm just trying to understand your
system.<br><br>Charles Butler<br><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Valerie Sutton <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21
PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l]
Ordering Signs<br></font><br>SignWriting List<br>November 30,
2009<br><br>Hello Andre!<br>I feel soooo happy to receive this message
from you. What a remarkable message this is. Very few people in the
history of SignWriting can provide information on testing how Deaf
children look up signs, by Sign Symbols, in dictionaries written in
SignWriting. That is because very few people have classrooms of Deaf
children fluent in SignWriting, and your classroom in French-Canada, using
LSQ, is one of those historic places, that we can point to, when
discussing the theories on sign-symbol-searches.<br><br>Of course there
are classrooms around the world using SignWriting...Stefan Woehrmann's
classroom in Germany, for example, and classrooms in Nicaragua and Belgium
and Brazil and other countries...and they are all doing wonderful
work...<br><br>Have any other teachers tested how Deaf children look up
signs in dictionaries without using any spoken language? Just searching
for signs sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence (alphabetical order of
SignWriting symbols)? If so, please tell us how it worked for your
students...<br><br>I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010, to improve
our printed dictionaries...and then distribute the printed dictionaries to
groups of signers to see if they can find signs in those printed
dictionaries, sorted by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't started
yet...<br><br>I can see, Andre, that you have already started such a
project and I am very interested to read your results...I will save this
message to refer to later...and THANK YOU for sharing with
us...<br><br>What excites me the most, is that you have found that it is
beneficial for your Deaf students, to use SignWriting in dictionaries.
That is meaningful, to know that SignWriting is making a difference in
people's lives...If it can help some Deaf children to learn how to use
dictionaries, that is wonderful.<br><br>Out of the 13 different handshapes
listed in Group 1 of the ISWA, LSQ (Quebec Sign Language) only uses 5 out
of the 13 handshapes...The International SignWriting Alphabet was never
meant to be used in its entirety by all sign languages...We all assume
that each sign language will only use some of the symbols in the ISWA,
just as the full IPA is not used to write this message in
English...<br><br>So I look forward to learning more about your project,
Andre -<br><br>Thanks again for your sharing with us -<br><br>Val
;-)<br><br>--------------------<br><br>On Nov 29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon
et Thibeault wrote:<br><br>> Hi Trevor, Charles, Gerard, Christophe,
and everyone<br>> <br>> A Deaf teacher and I have been
working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ) dictionary for one month
now. The Deaf teacher has been testing if Deaf children are able to
look up SW orders without alphabetic orders in the dictionary.<br>>
<br>> It seems that it works well because Deaf children
who have difficulties to read a written French can directly find a written
LSQ to help them find a French word in the dictionary.<br>>
<br>> Charles mentioned that handshape orders are “index
finger”, “index & middle finger”, “index finger, middle, & thumb”,
“four fingers”, “four fingers & thumb”, “thumb & small finger”,
“thumb & ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”, and “thumb &
fist”. I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see the attached
ISWA. The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA in the
world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
handshapes.<br>> <br>> In addition, you will see the
attached location orders. Location orders have 5 parts: 1) head
& neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5) neutral space.
If you look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must think from the
high level of location to the low level of location. Contact symbols which
include touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific area of the
body. If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up
quickly a head location order. For example, if a signer produces
BELIEVE (ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a
“head” location order. Another example, if the signer produces SHOW
(ASL), the index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left
hand. You look up a hand location order. If the signer produces ONE
(ASL), the index finger is the front of the shoulder without contact
symbols. You look up a last (neutral space) location order.<br>>
<br>> You will see the attached SW orders. You will
find a first page. You look up index finger and location orders. EYE
(LSQ) is a highest level of the head than higher level of the head for
TOOTH (LSQ) than a high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level
of the head for TO SAY (LSQ).<br>> <br>> Trevor, if the
signer who uses a British manual alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index
finger of the right hand touches the thumb of the left hand (handshape
5). You look up an index finger order and a hand location order in
the BSL dictionary. If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index
finger of the right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left
hand (handshape 5). You look up an index finger order and a
hand location order. You will see the attached SW orders (page
21).<br>> <br>> We will adjust and test the LSQ
dictionary. We are still working on it. If Trevor, Charles or
everyone takes a (SW) workshop or attends a (SW) conference, we will be
happy to teach him/her how to look up quickly your own sign language in
the dictionary.<br>> <br>> Best regards,<br>>
<br>> André<br>> <br>><br><br></div></div></div>
<p></p>
<hr>
<p></p><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L
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SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List
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<p>
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