<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div>I understand your need for location order as second, I just would put "neutral space" (like ZERO) before 1 (top of head). <br><br>Charles<br><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Gagnon et Thibeault <atg@videotron.ca><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, December 1, 2009 8:59:22 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs<br></font><br>
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<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">Hi Charles and
everyone,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> You mentioned that you are first
using the Handshape order and then the Location order. I do the same. For
example, I look for PLAY (ASL) in the ASL dictionary without alphabetic
order of spoken language. At first, I find group 6 " thumb & small
finger" and I go to page 145. Second, I look at the 5 parts of Location order:
1) Head, 2) Trunk, 3) Arm, 4) Hand, and 5) Neutral space. I find Neutral
space and go to page 169. Third, I look up quickly from high level of Neutral
space to low level of Neutral space. I find the front chest on page 172
and look for an exact writtien ASL for PLAY. I find it and look at
the English word " to play" on page 173. I hope this
helps.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> You know that Deaf children do not
have experience using the alphabetic order of SignWriting in the dictionary. A
Deaf teacher and I decided to place 1) Head, 2) Trunk, 3) Arm, 4) Hand, and 5)
Neutral space, which help Deaf children easily remember Location order. This way
was successful looking them up quickly. It is very important that
Deaf children understand how to use and look up quickly their sign language in
the dictionary. Later, it could be changed from popular location to
unpopular location. In the future, in the standard dictionary, it
will officially be: 1) Handshape order, 2) Location order, and 3) movement
order.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> Charles, as first Location order
, you prefer Neutral space, and Head as second Location order. it is fine
to me. It is up to you.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> Best regards,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> André</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(255, 255, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">Charles Butler</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 12:10
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I am still confused. I understand your going with Location first, I
tend to go with handshape first, which would put anything with an index finger
together, with neutral space first, then starting from the head down, that's
the only apparent difference. Neutral or hand contact seems to happen
much more in ASL than LSQ.<br><br>Charles<br><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Gagnon et Thibeault
<atg@videotron.ca><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
SignWriting List <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, December 1, 2009 11:47:27
AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l]
Ordering Signs<br></font><br>
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<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">Hi Charles and
everyone,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"> Charles,
you are right. You will see the attached "head"
orders.</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">
Regards,</font></strong></div>
<div><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong> </div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial">
André</font></strong></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(255, 255, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">Charles
Butler</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SignWriting List</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, November 30, 2009 1:02 PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; -x-system-font: none; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [sw-l] Ordering Signs</div>
<div><strong><font size="6" color="#ffff00" face="Arial"></font></strong><strong><font size="6" face="Arial"></font></strong><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div>I'm not sure how to read your dictionary, Andre,<br><br>The first four
entries seem to be by head. Is that intentional? I was trying to
follow your logic and compare it to what I had proposed and using handshape
as the first entry, and then location, the first four signs would follow
differently. The way you placed the BSL sign language I agree with,
I'm just trying to understand your system.<br><br>Charles
Butler<br><br></div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">
<hr size="1">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Valerie Sutton
<sutton@signwriting.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List
<sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, November 30, 2009 12:23:21
PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l]
Ordering Signs<br></font><br>SignWriting List<br>November 30,
2009<br><br>Hello Andre!<br>I feel soooo happy to receive this message from
you. What a remarkable message this is. Very few people in the history of
SignWriting can provide information on testing how Deaf children look up
signs, by Sign Symbols, in dictionaries written in SignWriting. That is
because very few people have classrooms of Deaf children fluent in
SignWriting, and your classroom in French-Canada, using LSQ, is one of those
historic places, that we can point to, when discussing the theories on
sign-symbol-searches.<br><br>Of course there are classrooms around the world
using SignWriting...Stefan Woehrmann's classroom in Germany, for example,
and classrooms in Nicaragua and Belgium and Brazil and other countries...and
they are all doing wonderful work...<br><br>Have any other teachers tested
how Deaf children look up signs in dictionaries without using any spoken
language? Just searching for signs sorted by Sign-Symbol-Sequence
(alphabetical order of SignWriting symbols)? If so, please tell us how it
worked for your students...<br><br>I am hoping to start, at the end of 2010,
to improve our printed dictionaries...and then distribute the printed
dictionaries to groups of signers to see if they can find signs in those
printed dictionaries, sorted by Sign-Symbols...but that project hasn't
started yet...<br><br>I can see, Andre, that you have already started such a
project and I am very interested to read your results...I will save this
message to refer to later...and THANK YOU for sharing with us...<br><br>What
excites me the most, is that you have found that it is beneficial for your
Deaf students, to use SignWriting in dictionaries. That is meaningful, to
know that SignWriting is making a difference in people's lives...If it can
help some Deaf children to learn how to use dictionaries, that is
wonderful.<br><br>Out of the 13 different handshapes listed in Group 1 of
the ISWA, LSQ (Quebec Sign Language) only uses 5 out of the 13
handshapes...The International SignWriting Alphabet was never meant to be
used in its entirety by all sign languages...We all assume that each sign
language will only use some of the symbols in the ISWA, just as the full IPA
is not used to write this message in English...<br><br>So I look forward to
learning more about your project, Andre -<br><br>Thanks again for your
sharing with us -<br><br>Val ;-)<br><br>--------------------<br><br>On Nov
29, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:<br><br>> Hi Trevor,
Charles, Gerard, Christophe, and everyone<br>> <br>> A
Deaf teacher and I have been working on a Sign Writing LSQ (a written LSQ)
dictionary for one month now. The Deaf teacher has been testing if
Deaf children are able to look up SW orders without alphabetic orders in the
dictionary.<br>> <br>> It seems that it works well
because Deaf children who have difficulties to read a written French can
directly find a written LSQ to help them find a French word in the
dictionary.<br>> <br>> Charles mentioned that handshape
orders are “index finger”, “index & middle finger”, “index finger,
middle, & thumb”, “four fingers”, “four fingers & thumb”, “thumb
& small finger”, “thumb & ring finger”, “thumb & index finger”,
and “thumb & fist”. I focus on “Index Finger”. You will see the
attached ISWA. The Index Finger has 13 different handshapes from ISWA
in the world. However, the Index Finger of the LSQ has only 5 different
handshapes.<br>> <br>> In addition, you will see the
attached location orders. Location orders have 5 parts: 1) head &
neck, 2) trunk & leg, 3) arm, 4) hand, 5) neutral space. If you
look up a written LSQ in the dictionary, you must think from the high level
of location to the low level of location. Contact symbols which include
touch, hit, rub and so forth interact with a specific area of the
body. If the hand or the finger touches the nose, you look up quickly
a head location order. For example, if a signer produces BELIEVE
(ASL), the index finger touches the middle front: you look up a “head”
location order. Another example, if the signer produces SHOW (ASL),
the index finger of the right hand touches the palm of the left hand. You
look up a hand location order. If the signer produces ONE (ASL), the
index finger is the front of the shoulder without contact
symbols. You look up a last (neutral space) location order.<br>>
<br>> You will see the attached SW orders. You will
find a first page. You look up index finger and location orders. EYE
(LSQ) is a highest level of the head than higher level of the head for TOOTH
(LSQ) than a high level of the head for CANDY (LSQ) than a low level of the
head for TO SAY (LSQ).<br>> <br>> Trevor, if the signer
who uses a British manual alphabet produces “A” (BSL), the index finger of
the right hand touches the thumb of the left hand (handshape 5). You
look up an index finger order and a hand location order in the BSL
dictionary. If the signer produces “I” (BSL), the index finger of the
right hand touches the tip of the middle finger of the left hand
(handshape 5). You look up an index finger order and a hand
location order. You will see the attached SW orders (page 21).<br>>
<br>> We will adjust and test the LSQ dictionary. We
are still working on it. If Trevor, Charles or everyone takes a (SW)
workshop or attends a (SW) conference, we will be happy to teach him/her how
to look up quickly your own sign language in the dictionary.<br>>
<br>> Best regards,<br>> <br>>
André<br>> <br>><br><br></div></div></div>
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