<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:tahoma,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><div>In ASL the tense is one of the first things stated in a story. Then tense is not restated until it changes. So if Lourdes set up that the story happened in the past at the beginning of the story; "Once upon a time" or the equivalent, then EVERY verb from then until it changed IF it changed would look like present tense on the surface, but that is only because the tense has already been established. English has to state the tense with every flippin' verb. ASL does not. (Sorry, can't comment about BSL ::smile::)<br></div><div style="font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Sandy Fleming
<sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SignWriting List <sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, January 8, 2010 3:59:56 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'<br></font><br>
I'd agree with Trevor's grammar here:<br><br>PAST FOOD COOK (hold with aspect) FINISHED.<br><br>"PAST" is the time marker (there's no actual tense in BSL) and generally<br>comes in the narrative before the things that happen at that time<br><br>"FINISHED" (or "BEEN") is the perfective aspect, and follows the verb<br>(though not all aspect is handled this way).<br><br>But Shane's:<br><br>FOOD COOK PAST<br><br>isn't wrong, it just needs support from non-manual features, as he<br>points out. To me it gives a different emphasis, more on WHEN the food<br>was cooked, rather than the actual cooking.<br><br>Does anyone perceive any semantic difference between:<br><br>FOOD COOK FINISHED<br><br>and:<br><br>FOOD COOK BEEN<br><br>in BSL? You'd think that "FINISHED" would have more of an achievement<br>associated with it but it seems to me that this connotation is lost in<br>using it as a perfective.<br><br>I would love to write some grammar rules for SignWriting
BSL: that sort<br>of thing would help people to write with more confidence, I think, but I<br>don't really feel qualified.<br><br>Sandy<br><br>On Thu, 2010-01-07 at 22:20 +0000, Trevor Jenkins wrote:<br>> Hi Shane,<br>> <br>> Interesting. I'd put that BSL time marker earlier. Something like<br>> <br>> PAST FOOD COOK (hold with aspect) FINISHED.<br>> <br>> <br>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Shane Gilchrist<br>> <<a ymailto="mailto:shane.gilchrist.oheorpa@gmail.com" href="mailto:shane.gilchrist.oheorpa@gmail.com">shane.gilchrist.oheorpa@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > Dear Gan,<br>> ><br>> > we dont really have past tenses in the same sense as the English<br>> > language - for instance, in BSL (using glosses - sorry!)<br>> ><br>> > I made food:<br>> ><br>> > - FOOD COOK^nodding<br>> > - FOOD COOK PAST<br>> > - FOOD COOK FINISHED!<br>> ><br>> >
non-manual features are very important here.<br>> ><br>> > Shane<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > 2010/1/6 Gan Lu <<a ymailto="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk" href="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk">glu@uclan.ac.uk</a>>:<br>> >> Hi Charles;<br>> >><br>> >> Thanks for the comment. So do you reckon the past tense is necessary here? And if we use "create". should it be 'Created' then?<br>> >><br>> >> Thanks<br>> >> Gan<br>> >><br>> >>>>> "Charles Butler" <<a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>> 06/01/10 1:54 PM >>><br>> >> Hmm. In context the sign, I would think would be either "make" or "create". The tense is carried by the situation.<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> create<br>> >><br>> >><br>>
>><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> ________________________________<br>> >> From: Gan Lu <<a ymailto="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk" href="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk">glu@uclan.ac.uk</a>><br>> >> To: <a ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> >> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 8:05:15 AM<br>> >> Subject: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'<br>> >><br>> >> Dear Adam and Valerie;<br>> >><br>> >> I'm implementing the system now. While I have a question:<br>> >><br>> >> why can't we use an ASL gesture to express the meaning of 'made' on the first page of the 'Frosty the Snow Man', other than using the FingerSpellings to sign these four letters respectively?<br>> >><br>> >> I suppose the reason is because
the word 'made' is a past tense, and there is no ASL for it.<br>> >><br>> >> The reason I'm asking is my intention is to implement the first page as a 4-by-4 output pattern, which are 16 sign-boxes in total includes those punctuations. So I'm looking for a way to squeeze the word 'made' into a box.<br>> >><br>> >> Thanks<br>> >> Gan<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> ____________________________________________<br>> >><br>> >> SW-L SignWriting List<br>> >><br>> >> Post Message<br>> >> <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> >><br>> >> List Archives and Help<br><span>> >> <a target="_blank"
href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a></span><br>> >><br>> >> Change Email Settings<br><span>> >> <a target="_blank" href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a></span><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> ____________________________________________<br>> >><br>> >> SW-L SignWriting List<br>> >><br>> >> Post Message<br>> >> <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> >><br>> >> List Archives and Help<br>> >> <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/" target="_blank">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>> >><br>> >> Change Email Settings<br>> >> <a
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