<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:tahoma,new york,times,serif;font-size:10pt"><div>So, based on what you say, BSL expresses tense the same way as ASL. It DOES have tense, it just doesn't add it to every verb, like English does. <br><br>Cherie<br></div><div style="font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Sandy Fleming <sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Fri, January 8, 2010 7:18:18 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'<br></font><br>
Cherie,<br><br>As I mentioned, BSL doesn't have tense. In telling a story, you simply<br>state a time (eg LAST-WEEK or IN-THE-PAST or TOMORROW), then that time<br>applies to everything you sign until you state new time.<br><br>BSL does have a lot of aspect, though, ie how an action is carried out.<br>For example, completed, protracted, interrupted and so on.<br><br>Sandy<br><br>On Fri, 2010-01-08 at 03:43 -0800, Cherie Wren wrote:<br>> In ASL the tense is one of the first things stated in a story. Then<br>> tense is not restated until it changes. So if Lourdes set up that the<br>> story happened in the past at the beginning of the story; "Once upon a<br>> time" or the equivalent, then EVERY verb from then until it changed IF<br>> it changed would look like present tense on the surface, but that is<br>> only because the tense has already been established. English has to<br>> state the tense with every flippin'
verb. ASL does not. (Sorry,<br>> can't comment about BSL ::smile::)<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ______________________________________________________________________<br>> From: Sandy Fleming <<a ymailto="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk" href="mailto:sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk">sandy@fleimin.demon.co.uk</a>><br>> To: SignWriting List <<a ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a>><br>> Sent: Fri, January 8, 2010 3:59:56 AM<br>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'<br>> <br>> I'd agree with Trevor's grammar here:<br>> <br>> PAST FOOD COOK (hold with aspect) FINISHED.<br>> <br>> "PAST" is the time marker (there's no actual tense in BSL) and<br>> generally<br>> comes in the narrative before the things that happen at that time<br>> <br>> "FINISHED" (or "BEEN") is the perfective
aspect, and follows the verb<br>> (though not all aspect is handled this way).<br>> <br>> But Shane's:<br>> <br>> FOOD COOK PAST<br>> <br>> isn't wrong, it just needs support from non-manual features, as he<br>> points out. To me it gives a different emphasis, more on WHEN the food<br>> was cooked, rather than the actual cooking.<br>> <br>> Does anyone perceive any semantic difference between:<br>> <br>> FOOD COOK FINISHED<br>> <br>> and:<br>> <br>> FOOD COOK BEEN<br>> <br>> in BSL? You'd think that "FINISHED" would have more of an achievement<br>> associated with it but it seems to me that this connotation is lost in<br>> using it as a perfective.<br>> <br>> I would love to write some grammar rules for SignWriting BSL: that<br>> sort<br>> of thing would help people to write with more confidence, I think, but<br>> I<br>> don't really feel qualified.<br>> <br>>
Sandy<br>> <br>> On Thu, 2010-01-07 at 22:20 +0000, Trevor Jenkins wrote:<br>> > Hi Shane,<br>> > <br>> > Interesting. I'd put that BSL time marker earlier. Something like<br>> > <br>> > PAST FOOD COOK (hold with aspect) FINISHED.<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Shane Gilchrist<br>> > <<a ymailto="mailto:shane.gilchrist.oheorpa@gmail.com" href="mailto:shane.gilchrist.oheorpa@gmail.com">shane.gilchrist.oheorpa@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > > Dear Gan,<br>> > ><br>> > > we dont really have past tenses in the same sense as the English<br>> > > language - for instance, in BSL (using glosses - sorry!)<br>> > ><br>> > > I made food:<br>> > ><br>> > > - FOOD COOK^nodding<br>> > > - FOOD COOK PAST<br>> > > - FOOD COOK FINISHED!<br>> > ><br>> > > non-manual features are
very important here.<br>> > ><br>> > > Shane<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > 2010/1/6 Gan Lu <<a ymailto="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk" href="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk">glu@uclan.ac.uk</a>>:<br>> > >> Hi Charles;<br>> > >><br>> > >> Thanks for the comment. So do you reckon the past tense is<br>> necessary here? And if we use "create". should it be 'Created' then?<br>> > >><br>> > >> Thanks<br>> > >> Gan<br>> > >><br>> > >>>>> "Charles Butler" <<a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>> 06/01/10 1:54 PM<br>> >>><br>> > >> Hmm. In context the sign, I would think would be either "make"<br>> or "create". The tense is carried by the situation.<br>> > >><br>> >
>><br>> > >> create<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> ________________________________<br>> > >> From: Gan Lu <<a ymailto="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk" href="mailto:glu@uclan.ac.uk">glu@uclan.ac.uk</a>><br>> > >> To: <a ymailto="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">sw-l@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> > >> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 8:05:15 AM<br>> > >> Subject: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'<br>> > >><br>> > >> Dear Adam and Valerie;<br>> > >><br>> > >> I'm implementing the system now. While I have a question:<br>> > >><br>> > >> why can't we use an ASL gesture to express the meaning of<br>> 'made' on the first page of the 'Frosty the
Snow Man', other than<br>> using the FingerSpellings to sign these four letters respectively?<br>> > >><br>> > >> I suppose the reason is because the word 'made' is a past<br>> tense, and there is no ASL for it.<br>> > >><br>> > >> The reason I'm asking is my intention is to implement the first<br>> page as a 4-by-4 output pattern, which are 16 sign-boxes in total<br>> includes those punctuations. So I'm looking for a way to squeeze the<br>> word 'made' into a box.<br>> > >><br>> > >> Thanks<br>> > >> Gan<br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> ____________________________________________<br>> > >><br>> > >> SW-L SignWriting List<br>> > >><br>> > >> Post Message<br>> > >> <a
ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> > >><br>> > >> List Archives and Help<br><span>> > >> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a></span><br>> > >><br>> > >> Change Email Settings<br><span>> > >> <a target="_blank" href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a></span><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > >> ____________________________________________<br>> > >><br>> > >> SW-L SignWriting List<br>> > >><br>> > >> Post Message<br>> > >> <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu"
href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> > >><br>> > >> List Archives and Help<br>> > >> <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/" target="_blank">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>> > >><br>> > >> Change Email Settings<br>> > >> <a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l" target="_blank">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br>> > >><br>> > >><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > > ____________________________________________<br>> > ><br>> > > SW-L SignWriting List<br>> > ><br>> > > Post Message<br>> > > <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> > ><br>>
> > List Archives and Help<br>> > > <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/" target="_blank">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>> > ><br>> > > Change Email Settings<br>> > > <a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l" target="_blank">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ____________________________________________<br>> <br>> SW-L SignWriting List<br>> <br>> Post Message<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br>> <br>> List Archives and Help<br>> <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/" target="_blank">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br>> <br>> Change Email Settings<br>> <a
href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l" target="_blank">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br>> <br>> <br>> <br><br><br><br><br>____________________________________________<br><br>SW-L SignWriting List<br><br>Post Message<br><a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu" href="mailto:SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu">SW-L@majordomo.valenciacc.edu</a><br><br>List Archives and Help<br><a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/" target="_blank">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/</a><br><br>Change Email Settings<br><a href="http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l" target="_blank">http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l</a><br><br></div></div>
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