<div> </div>
<div>Dear Valerie, Stefan, Charles, Trevor, and friends:</div>
<div>I apologize for not being able to write more often. I am under 900 tons of research reports now, and the pressure will remain till late December, when the deadline is to be met. Deadlines are a gift. As implacable as they are, at least they put an end to our interminable burden as dictionary-making obsessive people. We are working terribly hard on the compendium of deaf assessment, on the treatise on deaf ed, on the remaining volumes of the encyclopedia, and on the 3rd ed. of the dictionary, which is to have 3 volumes. I have just presided a huge national congress on learning disabilities where I presented the new paradigm on deaf assessment and deaf literacy, which was very well received indeed. Amongst so many great initiatives, I also talked about the wonderfully promising combination between Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift. </div>
<div>Every now and then I emerge to surface to breathe, and enjoy the graceful messages that always makes me smile in contentment.</div>
<div>What a joy to receive all those great messages. Thanks. I enjoyed Charles' metaphor on the Brazilian soul as being "excruciatingly polite" (a survival stragegy considering the politicians we have down here.) I enjoyed Trevor's kind comments on our dictionary. I do thank him very much for that. And I would like to state that anyone of our dear members of the SW list is very welcome to use excerpts from our dictionary or encyclopedia on Wikipedia articles aimed at fostering SW. We are delighted to contribute and be useful to SW and deaf education. It is a great honor for our research team down here. I also enjoyed reading about the wonderful combination between Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift. I will devote a large chapter on that next September, when I have to deliver a new book on spelling under dication of orofacial reading in Portuguese, which is almost complete (the last chapter will be on Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift, and I have to write it in a precise time frame from Sept 1st to the 30th). In the national congress on learning disabilities I mentioned before, I have made comments of the promising combination between Valerie's SignWriting and Stefan's Mundblischift, and I feel that combination will be very well received by next year, when all the seeds have begun to germinate. The future seems to be good, indeed. After three quatrillion, nine trillion, seven billion, five million, eight hundred, and sixty-four hits with our heaviest of all hammers, the black solid granite block wall that separated us from rock-solid system-knowledge seems to be finally cracking down. What a relief we have kept our faith throughout the whole series of apparently innocuous hits.</div>
<div>I shall write again by late September or early October. Best regards,</div>
<div>Fernando</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>------------------------------</div>
<div>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 13:58:28 +0100<br>From: Trevor Jenkins <<a href="mailto:bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article</div>
<div>--485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3<br>Content-Type: text/plain;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit</div>
<div>On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com%3Ewrote">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com>wrote</a>:</div>
<div>> This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher<br>> who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about the<br>> Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier to<br>
> becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500<br>> people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the<br>> Brazilian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a<br>
> professor in a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.<br>></div>
<div>Fascinating anecdote. Of the 100 SignWriting users how many were Deaf? Or<br>were they all hearing signers? I suspect that the reaction here in Britain<br>would be similar; let him have his say and then ignore everything. It's here<br>
that Stefan's experience is so useful. If the educators are focused so<br>intently upon the enclosing spoken language then sell them SignWriting (with<br>Mundblischift) as a way to improving the Deaf childrens' command of the<br>
enclosing language.</div>
<div>Personally I'm not interested in uni-linguialism. I am passionate about true<br>bi-lingualism though; I want the hearies to be able to communicate with the<br>Deaf as opposed to the Deaf being forced to communiate at the hearing. Bell<br>
still has a lot to answer for.</div>
<div><br>> SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we<br>> are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.<br>></div>
<div>I love the LSB dictionary. (And especially that it doesn't use Stokoe<br>notation.) The use of cartoon and more formal pictures with SignWriting is<br>fantastic. It might be more appropriate to use something similar on the<br>
(English language) WIkipedia page for SignWriting; the formal drawing of the<br>signed component with the corresponding SignWriting form would get around<br>the problem that the original poster here was raising.</div>
<div>Regards, Trevor.</div>
<div><>< Re: deemed!</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/6 SW-L automatic digest system <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:LISTSERV@listserv.valenciacollege.edu">LISTSERV@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">There are 4 messages totalling 1510 lines in this issue.<br><br>Topics of the day:<br><br> 1. Wikipedia article (3)<br>
2. Wikipedia article - Path to Literacy<br><br>----------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 04:49:43 -0700<br>From: Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br>--0-1479397719-1307274583=:38139<br>Content-Type: text/plain;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher =<br>
who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about th=<br>e Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier t=<br>o becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500 =<br>
people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazi=<br>lian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor in=<br> a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.=A0=0A=0ASignWriting is finally=<br>
hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we are going to be seeing=<br> a lot of changes over the years.=0A=0ACharles Butler=0A=0A=0A=0A__________=<br>______________________=0AFrom: Cherie Wren <<a href="mailto:cwterp@YAHOO.COM">cwterp@YAHOO.COM</a>>=0ATo: SW-L@LI=<br>
<a href="http://stserv.valenciacollege.edu/" target="_blank">STSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>=0ASent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07 PM=0ASubject=<br>: Re: Wikipedia article=0A=0A=0AShoot, I cant find it now...=A0 I had writt=<br>
en a proposal to my administration to do some research using signwriting to=<br> teach Deaf kids.=A0 It is based on research by J Cummins who did a lot of =<br>work with bilingual education.=A0 His research posits that there are two wa=<br>
ys to reach literacy in a second language.=A0 One way is via the spoken lan=<br>guage.=A0 Spanish speaking kids in American schools learn to speak English,=<br> then transfer that knowledge to learning to read and write English.=A0 Tha=<br>
t doesn't work so well for Deaf kids, who have great difficulties learning =<br>to speak a language they cant hear.=A0 The other way that Cummins proposes =<br>is via the written form of the language.=A0 Spanish speaking kids who are l=<br>
iterate in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to learning writte=<br>n English.=A0 There is research out there that states that Cummins research=<br> does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL.=A0 But you CAN=<br>
.=A0 I had hoped to do research<br> showing that SignWriting could be the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve =<br>literacy in English, but that isn't going to happen now.=A0=A0=0A=0Acherie=<br>=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A>From: Charles Butler <c=<br>
<a href="mailto:hazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">hazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>>=0A>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>=0A>Sent: =<br>Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article=0A>=0A>=0A=<br>
>My experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf and hearing instr=<br>uctors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers of the event fo=<br>r teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when the very first words were "and h=<br>
ow will this additional writing system help MY students to read English" wa=<br>s the immediate barrier.=0A>=0A>=0A>I found myself tongue-tied and unable t=<br>o pursue a useful conversation because every response in the room was stack=<br>
ed against me. All of them wanted the Deaf to read English in all circumsta=<br>nces, and honestly refused to see SignWriting as a writing system for any s=<br>igned language, a true writing system to produce one's own language paralle=<br>
l to the larger population's spoken language. =A0For more than an hour, my =<br>lecture was peppered with questions of "why should I ADD to the burden of t=<br>he Deaf" as if Deaf student were somehow the personal possession of the tea=<br>
chers, and they MUST use English in the long run, so why teach them to writ=<br>e and read their own language.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>This is in a state where Oberl=<br>in Conservatory teaches Dance Writing, recognizing that Dance itself is a l=<br>
anguage, and you cannot describe choreography in English or any other langu=<br>age without a way to write in a diagramatic written form.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>Whe=<br>n people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting, a Deaf or h=<br>
earing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is a language of m=<br>ovement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised in=<br> using gesture based languages on an equal footing.=0A>=0A>=0A>Although one=<br>
can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, the Cyrillic alphabet is the w=<br>riting system of choice because of history and education.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>One=<br> can write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using a writ=<br>
ten language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways whether=<br> one is speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, Sechuan, or Mongolian dialects, it re=<br>mains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of them.=<br>
=A0=0A>=0A>=0A>One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the a=<br>lphabet of choice is Sanskrit, used for more than 3000 years.=A0=0A>=0A>=0A=<br>>So now we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based languag=<br>
es, I believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is iconogr=<br>aphic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read.=A0=0A>=0A>=<br>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A>From: Trevor Jenkins <b=<br>
<a href="mailto:slwannabe@GMAIL.COM">slwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>>=0A>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>=0A>Sent: Satu=<br>rday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article=0A>=0A>=0A>A b=<br>
etter comparison for the content of the SignWriting page on the English lan=<br>guage WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese, Japane=<br>se, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi and other orthographic systems. We need to be =<br>
clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a writing scheme for signed lan=<br>guages. In the same way that Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme for sp=<br>oken Chinese and similar for other spoken languages with non-Latinate ortho=<br>
graphies.=0A>=0A>Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose =<br>to IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicogra=<br>phers might disagree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obviou=<br>
s parallel to IPA. Though here as a native English speaker and second langu=<br>age British Sign Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL =<br>fingerspelling shapes names in Stokoe, and the use of Latinate symbols in I=<br>
PA for that matter, are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is, of=<br> course, a similar problem with SignWriting as many of the training materia=<br>ls are written using ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting a=<br>
llows one to get around the problem, which a non-Latinate reader would not =<br>be able to do with IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA=<br> of signed languages but the point is that the written critical form of spo=<br>
ken languages often bears no relation to the way strings are actually prono=<br>unced.=0A (One only has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let'=<br>s call the whole thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography=<br>
makes of pronounciation.)=0A>=0A>However, in one sense I agree with you; t=<br>he use of an ASL story gives the wrong impression of SignWriting ... that i=<br>t is solely for ASL. As Val has pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my p=<br>
oor history of the genesis of SignWriting) this orthography is applicable t=<br>o all signed languages and manual communication systems.=0A>=0A>=0A>On Fri,=<br> Jun 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <<a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a>> wrote:=<br>
=0A>=0A>A number of people responded to my suggestion about signwriting (SW=<br>). =A0Only two of them understood where I was coming from and why I made th=<br>e suggestion that a simpler, more straightforward piece is called for in th=<br>
e=A0Wikipedia article. =A0Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW and ho=<br>w it arose from someone without a background in sign language. =A0I think t=<br>hat all of the respondents should read and think about what she wrote becau=<br>
se at the time she was also not involved in SW as it has developed. =A0The =<br>other person who made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen, who went t=<br>hrough the same experience that I have, viz., very little knowledge at a ve=<br>
ry early stage of learning ASL. =A0He, too, needed responses to questions t=<br>hat arose from very little experience with ASL=0A>>=0A>>I think that commun=<br>ication itself must be handled with care. =A0One has to take the time and t=<br>
rouble to understand the basis and the reason for remarks made and question=<br>s asked. =A0The article in Wikipedia is in the English language and the top=<br>ics contained therein are intended for English speaking people. =A0I wrote =<br>
as an English speaker and relatively ignorant ASL user who was trying to un=<br>derstand an esoteric=A0=0A>>topic. =A0All of=A0you must have been confronte=<br>d with "Why signwriting - why don't they just use the text?". =A0That's a v=<br>
ery understandable question for someone with little or no training in sign =<br>language and with no experience with deaf people.=A0I have attended a total=<br> of 12 classes in ASL; for my final exam I decided to try to convey to the =<br>
class that something called signwriting exists. =A0No one in a class of fif=<br>teen, not even the teacher, had ever heard of signwriting. =A0So those of y=<br>ou who have been involved with SW for a long time should keep in mind that =<br>
there is a world of people who might want to know about SW and who will pro=<br>bably ask very simple and elementary questions, as I did. =A0=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=<br>>Given what I just wrote, I would like to suggest that a statement like the=<br>
one that Adam Frost made:=0A>>Having a literal translation will actually b=<br>e seen as an insult, especially to native users, and will make SignWriting =<br>seem to be an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used=A0=A0must =<br>
be directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of users o=<br>f Wikipedia. =A0I was completely perplexed by it=0A>>and it was only after =<br>thinking hard about how in world anyone could misconstrue my simple suggest=<br>
ion that I realized how delicate the issue of communication is and how hard=<br> we have to think about the source of the question. =A0Without giving the i=<br>ssue serious consideration, the two sides, experienced SW users and those s=<br>
eeking to understand what SW is all about, will never make contact and that=<br> would be a pity. =A0But as long as people like Thiessen and Sutton are inv=<br>olved, there is hope that the issue will not get too far out of control.=0A=<br>
>>=0A>>=0A>>With serious good intentions,=0A>>George Veronis =A0=0A>>=0A>>=<br>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>-- =0A>Regards, Trevor.=0A>=0A><>< Re:=<br>
deemed!=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A><br>--0-1479397719-1307274583=:38139<br>Content-Type: text/html;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br><html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=<br>
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>This multi-faceted ap=<br>proach was the very one given by a British researcher who was touring Brazi=<br>l when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about the Deaf not being able=<br>
to write their own language and so having a barrier to becoming truly bili=<br>ngual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500 people in the lecture=<br> hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazilian custom, were exc=<br>
ruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor in a lecture, but peopl=<br>e were clearly annoyed. </span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div>=<br><span>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I thi=<br>
nk we are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.</span></div><=<br>div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Charles Butler</span></div><div><span=<br>
><br></span></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt;<br> font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt=<br>; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "><font size=3D=<br>
"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From=<br>:</span></b> Cherie Wren &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bcwterp@YAHOO.COM">lt;cwterp@YAHOO.COM</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font=<br>
-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><spa=<br>n style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07=<br>
PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipe=<br>dia article<br></font><br>=0A<div id=3D"yiv25073643"><div style=3D"color: r=<br>
gb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 12pt; font-fa=<br>mily: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div><span>Shoot, I cant find it now.=<br>.. I had written a proposal to my administration to do some research =<br>
using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. It is based on research by J Cu=<br>mmins who did a lot of work with bilingual education. His research po=<br>sits that there are two ways to reach literacy in a second language. =<br>
One way is via the spoken language. Spanish speaking kids in American=<br> schools learn to speak English, then transfer that knowledge to learning t=<br>o read and write English. That doesn't work so well for Deaf kids, wh=<br>
o have great difficulties learning to speak a language they cant hear. =<br>; The other way that Cummins proposes is via the written form of the langua=<br>ge. Spanish speaking kids who are literate in Spanish can use written=<br>
Spanish as the bridge to<br> learning written English. There=0A is research out there that states=<br> that Cummins research does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't wri=<br>te ASL. But you CAN. I had hoped to do research showing that Si=<br>
gnWriting could be the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve literacy in Engl=<br>ish, but that isn't going to happen now. </span></div><div><br><=<br>span></span></div><div><span>cherie<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote st=<br>
yle=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:=<br>5px;"><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-se=<br>rif; "><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new =<br>
york', times, serif; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><s=<br>pan style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Charles Butler <chazzer=<br>
<a href="mailto:3332000@YAHOO.COM">3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b=<br>> <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;"=<br>
>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42=0A AM<br><b><span style=3D"fo=<br>nt-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>=<br>
=0A<div id=3D"yiv25073643"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-co=<br>lor: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial, helvetica, sa=<br>ns-serif; "><div>My experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf a=<br>
nd hearing instructors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers=<br> of the event for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when the very first w=<br>ords were "and how will this additional writing system help MY students to =<br>
read English" was the immediate barrier.</div><div><br></div><div>I found m=<br>yself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation because every =<br>response in the room was stacked against me. All of them wanted the Deaf to=<br>
read English in all circumstances, and honestly refused to see SignWriting=<br> as a writing system for any signed language, a true writing system to prod=<br>uce one's own language parallel to the larger population's spoken language.=<br>
For more than an hour, my lecture was peppered with questions of<br> "why should I ADD to the burden=0A of the=0A Deaf" as if Deaf student were=<br> somehow the personal possession of the teachers, and they MUST use English=<br>
in the long run, so why teach them to write and read their own language.&n=<br>bsp;</div><div><br></div><div>This is in a state where Oberlin Conservatory=<br> teaches Dance Writing, recognizing that Dance itself is a language, and yo=<br>
u cannot describe choreography in English or any other language without a w=<br>ay to write in a diagramatic written form. </div><div><br></div><div>W=<br>hen people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting, a Deaf or=<br>
hearing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is a language of=<br> movement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised =<br>in using gesture based languages on an equal footing.</div><div><br></div><=<br>
div>Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, the Cyrillic a=<br>lphabet is the writing system of choice because of history and education.&n=<br>bsp;</div><div><br></div><div>One can=0A write the many mutually unintellig=<br>
ible languages of China using a written language of pictographs which are p=<br>ronounced any number of ways whether one is speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, S=<br>echuan, or Mongolian dialects, it remains itself a pictographic system not =<br>
really dependent on any one of them. </div><div><br></div><div>One can=<br> write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the alphabet of choice is S=<br>anskrit, used for more than 3000 years. </div><div><br></div><div>So n=<br>
ow we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based languages, I=<br> believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is iconographic=<br> so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read. </div><div=<br>
><br></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: arial=<br>, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: time=<br>s, serif; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=<br>
=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Trevor<br> Jenkins=0A &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bbslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">lt;bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:b=<br>
old;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span style=3D=<br>"font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM<br><b><=<br>
span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<=<br>br></font><br>=0A<div id=3D"yiv25073643">A better comparison for the conten=<br>t of the SignWriting page on the English language WikiPedia page would be t=<br>
he pages for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese, Japanese, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi an=<br>d other <b>orthographic systems</b>. We need to be clear that SignWriting i=<br>s nothing more than a writing scheme for signed languages. In the same way =<br>
that Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme for spoken Chinese and similar=<br> for other spoken languages with non-Latinate orthographies.<br>=0A<br>Pers=<br>onally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA (International=<br>
Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might disagree =<br>with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to IPA. Th=<br>ough here as a native English speaker and second language British Sign Lang=<br>
uage speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling shapes=<br> names in Stokoe, and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that matter, a=<br>re a hinderance to learning the notation. There is, of course, a similar pr=<br>
oblem with SignWriting as many of the training materials are written using =<br>ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows one to get arou=<br>nd the problem, which a non-Latinate reader would not be able to do with IP=<br>
A. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of signed languages =<br>but the point is that the written critical form of spoken languages often b=<br>ears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounced.=0A (One only h=<br>
as to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call the whole thin=<br>g off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes of pronounciat=<br>ion.)<br>=0A<br>However, in one sense I agree with you; the use of an ASL s=<br>
tory gives the wrong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for AS=<br>L. As Val has pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the=<br> genesis of SignWriting) this orthography is applicable to all signed langu=<br>
ages and manual communication systems.<br>=0A<br><div class=3D"yiv25073643g=<br>mail_quote">On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <span dir=3D"lt=<br>r"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a>" targe=<br>
t=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a>">george.veronis@yale.ed=<br>u</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"yiv25073643gmail_quote" sty=<br>
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=0A<d=<br>iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;">A number of people responded to my sugge=<br>stion about signwriting (SW). Only two of them understood where I was=<br>
coming from and why I made the suggestion that a simpler, more straightfor=<br>ward piece is called for in the Wikipedia article. Valerie Sutto=<br>n mentioned the origins of SW and how it arose from someone without a backg=<br>
round in sign language. I think that all of the respondents should re=<br>ad and think about what she wrote because at the time she was also not invo=<br>lved in SW as it has developed. The other person who made very pertin=<br>
ent remarks is Stuart Thiessen, who went through the same experience that I=<br> have, viz., very little knowledge at a very early stage of learning ASL. &=<br>nbsp;He, too, needed responses to questions that arose from very little exp=<br>
erience with ASL<div>=0A<div> <span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; col=<br>or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: no=<br>rmal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-t=<br>
ransform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium; =<br>font-family: Geneva; "><div>=0A<br>I think that communication itself must b=<br>e handled with care. One has to take the time and trouble to understa=<br>
nd the basis and the reason for remarks made and questions asked. The=<br> article in Wikipedia is in the English language and the topics contained t=<br>herein are intended for English speaking people. I wrote as an Englis=<br>
h speaker and relatively ignorant ASL user who was trying to understand an =<br>esoteric </div>=0A<div>topic. All of you must have been con=<br>fronted with "Why signwriting - why don't they just use the text?". T=<br>
hat's a very understandable question for someone with little or no training=<br> in sign language and with no experience with deaf people. I have atte=<br>nded a total of 12 classes in ASL; for my final exam I decided to try to co=<br>
nvey to the class that something called signwriting exists. No one in=<br> a class of fifteen, not even the teacher, had ever heard of signwriting. &=<br>nbsp;So those of you who have been involved with SW for a long time should =<br>
keep in mind that there is a world of people who might want to know about S=<br>W and who will probably ask very simple and elementary questions, as I did.=<br> </div>=0A<div><br></div><div>Given what I just wrote, I would like t=<br>
o suggest that a statement like the one that Adam Frost made:</div><div><fo=<br>nt color=3D"#1B00FF">Having a literal translation will actually be seen as =<br>an insult, especially to native users, and will make SignWriting seem to be=<br>
an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used </font>mu=<br>st be directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of user=<br>s of Wikipedia. I was completely perplexed by it</div>=0A<div>and it =<br>
was only after thinking hard about how in world anyone could misconstrue my=<br> simple suggestion that I realized how delicate the issue of communication =<br>is and how hard we have to think about the source of the question. Wi=<br>
thout giving the issue serious consideration, the two sides, experienced SW=<br> users and those seeking to understand what SW is all about, will never mak=<br>e contact and that would be a pity. But as long as people like Thiess=<br>
en and Sutton are involved, there is hope that the issue will not get too f=<br>ar out of control.</div>=0A<div><br></div><div>With serious good intentions=<br>,</div><div>George Veronis </div><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></d=<br>
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></font></span></div></div><=<br>/div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all">=0A<br>-- <br>Regards, Trevor=<br>
.<br><br><>< Re: deemed!<br>=0A</div><br><br></div></div></div></d=<br>iv><br><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br><br></div></div><=<br>
/div></body></html><br>--0-1479397719-1307274583=:38139--<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 13:58:28 +0100<br>From: Trevor Jenkins <<a href="mailto:bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br>--485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3<br>Content-Type: text/plain;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<br><br>On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>> This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher<br>> who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about the<br>> Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier to<br>
> becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500<br>> people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the<br>> Brazilian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a<br>
> professor in a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.<br>><br><br>Fascinating anecdote. Of the 100 SignWriting users how many were Deaf? Or<br>were they all hearing signers? I suspect that the reaction here in Britain<br>
would be similar; let him have his say and then ignore everything. It's here<br>that Stefan's experience is so useful. If the educators are focused so<br>intently upon the enclosing spoken language then sell them SignWriting (with<br>
Mundblischift) as a way to improving the Deaf childrens' command of the<br>enclosing language.<br><br>Personally I'm not interested in uni-linguialism. I am passionate about true<br>bi-lingualism though; I want the hearies to be able to communicate with the<br>
Deaf as opposed to the Deaf being forced to communiate at the hearing. Bell<br>still has a lot to answer for.<br><br><br>> SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we<br>> are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.<br>
><br><br>I love the LSB dictionary. (And especially that it doesn't use Stokoe<br>notation.) The use of cartoon and more formal pictures with SignWriting is<br>fantastic. It might be more appropriate to use something similar on the<br>
(English language) WIkipedia page for SignWriting; the formal drawing of the<br>signed component with the corresponding SignWriting form would get around<br>the problem that the original poster here was raising.<br><br>Regards, Trevor.<br>
<br><>< Re: deemed!<br><br>--485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3<br>Content-Type: text/html;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Charles Butler <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=<br>
ef=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>"><a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a></a>></sp=<br>an> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =<br>
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><br><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:arial, helv=<br>etica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>This multi-faceted approach wa=<br>
s the very one given by a British researcher who was touring Brazil when I =<br>was there in 2000. He went on and on about the Deaf not being able to write=<br> their own language and so having a barrier to becoming truly bilingual, an=<br>
d this was with more than 100 out of the 500 people in the lecture hall flu=<br>ent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazilian custom, were excruciating=<br>ly polite in not contradicting a professor in a lecture, but people were cl=<br>
early annoyed.=A0</span></div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Fascinating anecdote. Of the 100 SignWrit=<br>ing users how many were Deaf? Or were they all hearing signers? I suspect t=<br>
hat the reaction here in Britain would be similar; let him have his say and=<br> then ignore everything. It's here that Stefan's experience is so u=<br>seful. If the educators are focused so intently upon the enclosing spoken l=<br>
anguage then sell them SignWriting (with Mundblischift) as a way to improvi=<br>ng the Deaf childrens' command of the enclosing language.<br><br><br>Personally I'm not interested in uni-linguialism. I am passionate a=<br>
bout true bi-lingualism though; I want the hearies to be able to communicat=<br>e with the Deaf as opposed to the Deaf being forced to communiate at the he=<br>aring. Bell still has a lot to answer for.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=<br>
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div><di=<br>v style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-=<br>family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<div><span>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so =<br>I think we are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.</span></=<br>div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>I love the LSB dictionary. (And espec=<br>
ially that it doesn't use Stokoe notation.) The use of cartoon and more=<br> formal pictures with=A0 SignWriting is fantastic. It might be more appropr=<br>iate to use something similar on the (English language) WIkipedia page for =<br>
SignWriting; the formal drawing of the signed component with the correspond=<br>ing SignWriting form would get around the problem that the original poster =<br>here was raising.<br><br></div><div><br></div></div>Regards, Trevor.<br><br><>< Re: deemed!=<br>
<br><br><br>--485b3973ed950fa0aa04a4f68bb3--<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 06:44:23 -0700<br>From: Yuri Barreto <<a href="mailto:nempretonembranco@YAHOO.COM.BR">nempretonembranco@YAHOO.COM.BR</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br>--0-1022750816-1307281463=:85875<br>Content-Type: text/plain;<br> charset=utf-8<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br>The issue=C2=A0of=C2=A0SW,=C2=A0for=C2=A0me,=C2=A0is=C2=A0its=C2=A0use=C2=<br>
=A0as a tool=C2=A0for cognitive development=C2=A0of=C2=A0the deaf.<br><br>The=C2=A0listener=C2=A0develops=C2=A0much=C2=A0when=C2=A0expressed orally=<br>=C2=A0and=C2=A0in writing.=C2=A0That's=C2=A0a=C2=A0fact.=C2=A0Andlearn=C2=<br>
=A0a=C2=A0second,=C2=A0third and many=C2=A0other=C2=A0languages=E2=80=8B=E2=<br>=80=8B, based on=C2=A0language developmentfavored=C2=A0by=C2=A0their=C2=A0m=<br>other tongue.<br><br>Today=C2=A0we understand=C2=A0the concept=C2=A0of "deaf culture",=C2=A0but=<br>
=C2=A0still=C2=A0expects=C2=A0the integration=C2=A0of the=C2=A0deaf=C2=A0so=<br>ciety=C2=A0mostly=C2=A0listener=C2=A0will be better=C2=A0in=C2=A0case they=<br>=C2=A0dominate=C2=A0at least=C2=A0the=C2=A0writtenform=C2=A0of=C2=A0spoken =<br>
language.<br><br>Among=C2=A0other=C2=A0writing systems=C2=A0of signs,=C2=A0SW=C2=A0is=C2=A0s=<br>hown=C2=A0as=C2=A0"visual"=C2=A0and=C2=A0"accessible"=C2=A0to the deaf.=C2=<br>=A0Alphabetic systems=C2=A0adopted in=C2=A0each=C2=A0country=C2=A0leads=C2=<br>
=A0directly=C2=A0(or near)=C2=A0thesound=C2=A0coming out=C2=A0of=C2=A0the m=<br>outh.<br><br>To=C2=A0learn=C2=A0"another=C2=A0language",=C2=A0the=C2=A0first=C2=A0native=<br> language.=C2=A0I believe=C2=A0that=C2=A0after=C2=A0decades=C2=A0ofstudy=C2=<br>
=A0and=C2=A0suffering=C2=A0of deaf people=C2=A0worldwide, this=C2=A0should=<br>=C2=A0be seen=C2=A0as=C2=A0a rule,=C2=A0all=C2=A0guidedand=C2=A0educational=<br> policies=C2=A0for these=C2=A0people.<br>I believe it is=C2=A0one=C2=A0of the=C2=A0Brazilians=C2=A0who=C2=A0believe=<br>
=C2=A0in=C2=A0bilingualism=C2=A0in addition to the=C2=A0SW.Gradually=C2=A0t=<br>he=C2=A0deaf=C2=A0is=C2=A0being politicized=C2=A0and=C2=A0"interfering"=C2=<br>=A0in the educational system.<br><br>Yuri=C2=A0Barreto<br>
<br>--- Em dom, 5/6/11, Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>> escreveu:<br><br>De: Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>
Assunto: Re: Wikipedia article<br>Para: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Data: Domingo, 5 de Junho de 2011, 8:49<br><br>This multi-faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher =<br>
who was touring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about th=<br>e Deaf not being able to write their own language and so having a barrier t=<br>o becoming truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500 =<br>
people in the lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazi=<br>lian custom, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor in=<br> a lecture, but people were clearly annoyed.=C2=A0<br>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in Brazil, so I think we =<br>
are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the years.<br>Charles Butler<br><br>From: Cherie Wren <<a href="mailto:cwterp@YAHOO.COM">cwterp@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07 PM<br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br>=0AShoot, I cant find it now...=C2=A0 I had written a proposal to my admini=<br>stration to do some research using signwriting to teach Deaf kids.=C2=A0 It=<br>
is based on research by J Cummins who did a lot of work with bilingual edu=<br>cation.=C2=A0 His research posits that there are two ways to reach literacy=<br> in a second language.=C2=A0 One way is via the spoken language.=C2=A0 Span=<br>
ish speaking kids in American schools learn to speak English, then transfer=<br> that knowledge to learning to read and write English.=C2=A0 That doesn't w=<br>ork so well for Deaf kids, who have great difficulties learning to speak a =<br>
language they cant hear.=C2=A0 The other way that Cummins proposes is via t=<br>he written form of the language.=C2=A0 Spanish speaking kids who are litera=<br>te in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to=0A learning written =<br>
English.=C2=A0 There=0A is research out there that states that Cummins rese=<br>arch does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL.=C2=A0 But =<br>you CAN.=C2=A0 I had hoped to do research showing that SignWriting could be=<br>
the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve literacy in English, but that isn'=<br>t going to happen now.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br>cherie<br><br>From: Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42=0A AM<br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br>=0AMy experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf and hearing ins=<br>
tructors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers of the event =<br>for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when the very first words were "and=<br> how will this additional writing system help MY students to read English" =<br>
was the immediate barrier.<br>I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation becau=<br>se every response in the room was stacked against me. All of them wanted th=<br>e Deaf to read English in all circumstances, and honestly refused to see Si=<br>
gnWriting as a writing system for any signed language, a true writing syste=<br>m to produce one's own language parallel to the larger population's spoken =<br>language. =C2=A0For more than an hour, my lecture was peppered with questio=<br>
ns of=0A "why should I ADD to the burden=0A of the=0A Deaf" as if Deaf stud=<br>ent were somehow the personal possession of the teachers, and they MUST use=<br> English in the long run, so why teach them to write and read their own lan=<br>
guage.=C2=A0<br>This is in a state where Oberlin Conservatory teaches Dance Writing, recogn=<br>izing that Dance itself is a language, and you cannot describe choreography=<br> in English or any other language without a way to write in a diagramatic w=<br>
ritten form.=C2=A0<br>When people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting, a Deaf o=<br>r hearing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is a language o=<br>f movement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised=<br>
in using gesture based languages on an equal footing.<br>Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, the Cyrillic alpha=<br>bet is the writing system of choice because of history and education.=C2=A0<br>One can=0A write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using =<br>
a written language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways w=<br>hether one is speaking Mandarin, Cantonese, Sechuan, or Mongolian dialects,=<br> it remains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of=<br>
them.=C2=A0<br>One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the alphabet of choi=<br>ce is Sanskrit, used for more than 3000 years.=C2=A0<br>So now we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based language=<br>
s, I believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is iconogra=<br>phic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read.=C2=A0<br><br>From: Trevor=0A Jenkins=0A <<a href="mailto:bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM<br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br>=0AA better comparison for the content of the SignWriting page on the Engli=<br>
sh language WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic, Hebrew, Chinese, =<br>Japanese, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi and other orthographic systems. We need =<br>to be clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a writing scheme for sign=<br>
ed languages. In the same way that Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme =<br>for spoken Chinese and similar for other spoken languages with non-Latinate=<br> orthographies.<br>=0A<br>Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA (Internati=<br>
onal Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might disag=<br>ree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to IPA=<br>. Though here as a native English speaker and second language British Sign =<br>
Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling sh=<br>apes names in Stokoe, and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that matte=<br>r, are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is, of course, a simila=<br>
r problem with SignWriting as many of the training materials are written us=<br>ing ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows one to get =<br>around the problem, which a non-Latinate reader would not be able to do wit=<br>
h IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of signed langua=<br>ges but the point is that the written critical form of spoken languages oft=<br>en bears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounced.=0A (One on=<br>
ly has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call the whole =<br>thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes of pronoun=<br>ciation.)<br>=0A<br>However, in one sense I agree with you; the use of an ASL story gives the w=<br>
rong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Val has po=<br>inted out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis of Sign=<br>Writing) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and manual =<br>
communication systems.<br>=0A<br>On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <<a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a>> w=<br>rote:<br>=0AA number of people responded to my suggestion about signwriting (SW). =<br>
=C2=A0Only two of them understood where I was coming from and why I made th=<br>e suggestion that a simpler, more straightforward piece is called for in th=<br>e=C2=A0Wikipedia article. =C2=A0Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW =<br>
and how it arose from someone without a background in sign language. =C2=A0=<br>I think that all of the respondents should read and think about what she wr=<br>ote because at the time she was also not involved in SW as it has developed=<br>
. =C2=A0The other person who made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen=<br>, who went through the same experience that I have, viz., very little knowl=<br>edge at a very early stage of learning ASL. =C2=A0He, too, needed responses=<br>
to questions that arose from very little experience with ASL=0A =0A<br>I think that communication itself must be handled with care. =C2=A0One has =<br>to take the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason for rem=<br>
arks made and questions asked. =C2=A0The article in Wikipedia is in the Eng=<br>lish language and the topics contained therein are intended for English spe=<br>aking people. =C2=A0I wrote as an English speaker and relatively ignorant A=<br>
SL user who was trying to understand an esoteric=C2=A0=0Atopic. =C2=A0All o=<br>f=C2=A0you must have been confronted with "Why signwriting - why don't they=<br> just use the text?". =C2=A0That's a very understandable question for someo=<br>
ne with little or no training in sign language and with no experience with =<br>deaf people.=C2=A0I have attended a total of 12 classes in ASL; for my fina=<br>l exam I decided to try to convey to the class that something called signwr=<br>
iting exists. =C2=A0No one in a class of fifteen, not even the teacher, had=<br> ever heard of signwriting. =C2=A0So those of you who have been involved wi=<br>th SW for a long time should keep in mind that there is a world of people w=<br>
ho might want to know about SW and who will probably ask very simple and el=<br>ementary questions, as I did. =C2=A0=0A<br>Given what I just wrote, I would like to suggest that a statement like the =<br>one that Adam Frost made:Having a literal translation will actually be seen=<br>
as an insult, especially to native users, and will make SignWriting seem t=<br>o be an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used=C2=A0=C2=A0must =<br>be directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of users o=<br>
f Wikipedia. =C2=A0I was completely perplexed by it=0Aand it was only after=<br> thinking hard about how in world anyone could misconstrue my simple sugges=<br>tion that I realized how delicate the issue of communication is and how har=<br>
d we have to think about the source of the question. =C2=A0Without giving t=<br>he issue serious consideration, the two sides, experienced SW users and tho=<br>se seeking to understand what SW is all about, will never make contact and =<br>
that would be a pity. =C2=A0But as long as people like Thiessen and Sutton =<br>are involved, there is hope that the issue will not get too far out of cont=<br>rol.=0A<br>With serious good intentions,George Veronis =C2=A0<br>
<br><br><br><br><br>=0A<br>--=20<br>Regards, Trevor.<br><br><>< Re: deemed!<br>=0A<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>--0-1022750816-1307281463=:85875<br>Content-Type: text/html;<br> charset=utf-8<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
<br><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=<br>top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"fon=<br>
t-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; "><span class=3D"hps" title=<br>=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">The issue</span>&=<br>nbsp;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es a=<br>
lternativas">of</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostra=<br>r tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">SW</span><span title=3D"Clique para mos=<br>trar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">,</span> <span class=<br>
=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">for=<br></span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>=C3=B5es alternativas">me,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique =<br>
para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">is</span> <span class=<br>=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">its=<br></span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>
=C3=B5es alternativas">use</span> <span<br> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativa=<br>s">as a tool</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar t=<br>
radu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">for cognitive development</span> <spa=<br>n class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativ=<br>as">of</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=<br>
=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the deaf.</span><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique=<br> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br class=3D"" title=3D"Cli=<br>que para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><span class=3D"hps" titl=<br>
e=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">The</span> =<br><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es altern=<br>ativas">listener</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostr=<br>
ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">develops</span> <span class=3D"hp=<br>s" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">much</spa=<br>n> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5e=<br>
s alternativas">when</span> <span class=3D"hps"<br> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">expressed o=<br>rally</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=<br>
=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">and</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Cliq=<br>ue para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in writing</span><span ti=<br>tle=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">.</=<br>
span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=<br>=B5es alternativas">That</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=<br>=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">'s</span> <span class=3D"hps" tit=<br>
le=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">a</span> <=<br>span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alterna=<br>tivas">fact</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es al=<br>
ternativas" class=3D"">.</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique pa=<br>ra mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">And</span><span class=3D"hps" =<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">learn</span>=<br> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar<br> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">a</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=<br>
=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">second</span><spa=<br>n title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D""=<br>>,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>
=C3=B5es alternativas">third and many</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=<br>=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">other</span> =<br>;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alter=<br>
nativas">languages</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=<br>=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B, based on</span> <sp=<br>an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternati=<br>
vas">language development</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mo=<br>strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">favored</span> <span class=3D"=<br>hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">by</spa=<br>
n> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5e=<br>s alternativas">their</span> <span class=3D"hps"<br> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">mother tong=<br>
ue</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativa=<br>s" class=3D"">.</span><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=<br>=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=<br>
=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostr=<br>ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Today</span> <span class=3D"hps" =<br>title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">we understan=<br>
d</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>=C3=B5es alternativas">the concept</span> <span class=3D"hps atn" titl=<br>e=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of "</span><span=<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">=<br>deaf culture</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es a=<br>lternativas" class=3D"">",</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique =<br>
para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">but</span> <span class=<br>=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es<br> alternativas">still</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para m=<br>
ostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">expects</span> <span class=3D=<br>"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the in=<br>tegration</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>
u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of the</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=<br>=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">deaf</span> =<br><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es altern=<br>
ativas">society</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostra=<br>r tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">mostly</span> <span class=3D"hps" =<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">listener</sp=<br>an> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5=<br>es alternativas">will be better</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Cl=<br>
ique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in</span> <span cl=<br>ass=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">=<br>case they</span> <span class=3D"hps"<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">dominate</s=<br>pan> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=<br>=B5es alternativas">at least</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Cliqu=<br>
e para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the</span> <span clas=<br>s=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">wr=<br>itten</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=<br>
=B5es alternativas">form</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique pa=<br>ra mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of</span> <span class=3D"=<br>
hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">spoken =<br>language</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alter=<br>nativas" class=3D"">.</span><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tra=<br>
du=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar =<br>tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para =<br>mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Among</span> <span class=3D"=<br>
hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es<br> alternativas">other</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para m=<br>ostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">writing systems</span> <span =<br>
class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas=<br>">of signs</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alt=<br>ernativas" class=3D"">,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique par=<br>
a mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">SW</span> <span class=3D"h=<br>ps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">is</span=<br>> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es=<br>
alternativas">shown</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para m=<br>ostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">as</span> <span class=3D"hps"=<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">"visual</sp=<br>an><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" cla=<br>ss=3D"">"</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>
u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">and</span> <span class=3D"hps atn" title=<br>=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es<br> alternativas">"</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5=<br>
es alternativas" class=3D"">accessible</span><span title=3D"Clique para mos=<br>trar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">"</span> <span class=<br>
=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">to =<br>the deaf.</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Alphabetic systems</span> <span class=3D=<br>
"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">adopte=<br>d in</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=<br>=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">each</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Cli=<br>
que para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">country</span> <spa=<br>n class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativ=<br>as">leads</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>
u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">directly</span> <span class=3D"hps atn" =<br>title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">(</span><spa=<br>n title=3D"Clique para mostrar<br>
tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">or near</span><span title=3D"=<br>Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">)</span>&n=<br>bsp;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es al=<br>
ternativas">the</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">sound</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=<br>
=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">coming out</span>=<br> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es =<br>alternativas">of</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostr=<br>
ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the mouth</span><span title=3D"Clique =<br>para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">.</span><br class=<br>=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><br cl=<br>
ass=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"><sp=<br>an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternati=<br>vas">To</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=<br>
=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">learn</span> <span class=3D"hps<br> atn" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">"</spa=<br>n><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" clas=<br>
s=3D"">another</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar=<br> tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">language</span><span title=3D"Clique par=<br>
a mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">"</span><span title=<br>=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">,</spa=<br>n> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5e=<br>
s alternativas">the</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mo=<br>strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">first</span> <span class=3D"hp=<br>
s" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">native la=<br>nguage</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alterna=<br>tivas" class=3D"">.</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mo=<br>
strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">I believe</span> <span class=<br>=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">tha=<br>t</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para<br>
mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">after</span> <span class=3D=<br>"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">decade=<br>s</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>
=C3=B5es alternativas">of</span><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mo=<br>strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">study</span> <span class=3D"hp=<br>s" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">and</span=<br>
> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es=<br> alternativas">suffering</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique pa=<br>
ra mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">of deaf people</span> <sp=<br>an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternati=<br>vas">worldwide</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es=<br>
alternativas" class=3D"">, this</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"C=<br>lique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">should</span> <sp=<br>
an class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternati=<br>vas">be seen</span> <span class=3D"hps"<br> title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">as</span>&n=<br>
bsp;<span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es al=<br>ternativas">a rule,</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mo=<br>strar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">all</span> <span class=3D"hps"=<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">guided</spa=<br>n><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alte=<br>rnativas">and</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar =<br>
tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">educational policies</span> <span cl=<br>ass=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">=<br>for these</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>
u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">people.</span></span><div style=3D"font-famil=<br>y: arial; font-size: 10pt; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font=<br>-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; "><br></span></div><div><font =<br>
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"Apple-=<br>style-span"<br> style=3D"font-size: 16px; "><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostr=<br>
ar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">I believe it is</span> <span clas=<br>s=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">on=<br>e</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>
=C3=B5es alternativas">of the</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Cliq=<br>ue para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Brazilians</span> <s=<br>pan class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternat=<br>
ivas">who</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar trad=<br>u=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">believe</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=<br>
=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in</span> <s=<br>pan class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternat=<br>ivas">bilingualism</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mos=<br>
trar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">in addition to the</span> <span=<br> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativa=<br>s">SW</span><span title=3D"Clique para<br>
mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">.</span><span class=<br>=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">Gra=<br>dually</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=<br>
=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">the</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"C=<br>lique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">deaf</span> <span=<br> class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativa=<br>
s">is</span> <span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=<br>=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">being politicized</span> <span class=3D"hps"=<br>
title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas">and</span>&=<br>nbsp;<span class=3D"hps atn" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5=<br>es alternativas">"</span><span title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=<br>
=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">interfering</span><span title=3D"Clique para=<br> mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">"</span> <span c=<br>
lass=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas"=<br>>in the educational system</span><span title=3D"Clique<br> para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas" class=3D"">.</span></span><=<br>
br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es alternativas=<br>"></font><br class=3D"" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=B5es al=<br>ternativas"><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=C3=<br>
=B5es alternativas" style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16p=<br>x; ">Yuri</span><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial, sans-serif"=<br>> </font><span class=3D"hps" title=3D"Clique para mostrar tradu=C3=A7=<br>
=C3=B5es alternativas" style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: =<br>16px; ">Barreto</span><br><br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"aria=<br>l" size=3D"2">--- Em </font><b style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt=<br>
; ">dom, 5/6/11, Charles Butler <i>&<a href="mailto:lt%3Bchazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">lt;chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>></i></b>=<br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"> escreveu:</font=<br>
><br><blockquote style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 10pt; border-left-=<br>width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255);<br> margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; "><br>De: Charles Butler <chazzer3=<br>
<a href="mailto:332000@YAHOO.COM">332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>Assunto: Re: Wikipedia article<br>Para: SW-L@LISTSE=<br><a href="http://rv.valenciacollege.edu/" target="_blank">RV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Data: Domingo, 5 de Junho de 2011, 8:49<br><br><d=<br>
iv id=3D"yiv734840167"><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-=<br>family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><div><span>This multi-=<br>faceted approach was the very one given by a British researcher who was tou=<br>
ring Brazil when I was there in 2000. He went on and on about the Deaf not =<br>being able to write their own language and so having a barrier to becoming =<br>truly bilingual, and this was with more than 100 out of the 500 people in t=<br>
he lecture hall fluent in SignWriting. Everyone, as is the Brazilian custom=<br>, were excruciatingly polite in not contradicting a professor in a lecture,=<br> but people were clearly annoyed. </span></div><div><span><br></span><=<br>
/div><div><span>SignWriting is finally hitting the national stage in<br> Brazil, so I think we are going to be seeing a lot of changes over the yea=<br>rs.</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span>Charles Butler</span=<br>
></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:1=<br>2pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div style=3D"font-size:12pt=<br>
;font-family:times, serif;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1">=<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Cherie Wren <cwter=<br>
<a href="mailto:p@YAHOO.COM">p@YAHOO.COM</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L=<br>@<a href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/" target="_blank">LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:=<br>
</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 5:07 PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight=<br>:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>=0A<div id=<br>
=3D"yiv734840167"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255=<br>, 255, 255);font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div>=<br><span>Shoot, I cant find it now... I had written a proposal to my adm=<br>
inistration to do some research using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. =<br> It is based on research by J Cummins who did a lot of work with bilingual =<br>education. His research posits that there are two ways to reach liter=<br>
acy in a second language. One way is via the spoken language. S=<br>panish speaking kids in American schools learn to speak English, then trans=<br>fer that knowledge to learning to read and write English. That doesn'=<br>
t work so well for Deaf kids, who have great difficulties learning to speak=<br> a language they cant hear. The other way that Cummins proposes is vi=<br>a the written form of the language. Spanish speaking kids who are lit=<br>
erate in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to=0A learning writt=<br>en English. There=0A is research out there that states that Cummins r=<br>esearch does not apply to Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL. B=<br>
ut you CAN. I had hoped to do research showing that SignWriting could=<br> be the bridge that helps Deaf kids improve literacy in English, but that i=<br>sn't going to happen now. </span></div><div><br><span></span></d=<br>
iv><div><span>cherie<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style=3D"border-l=<br>eft:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;"><div styl=<br>
e=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div style=<br>=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:times, serif;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Aria=<br>l"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Cha=<br>
rles Butler &<a href="mailto:lt%3Bchazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">lt;chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font-weig=<br>ht:bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span styl=<br>
e=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 8:42=0A AM<=<br>br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia a=<br>
rticle<br></font><br>=0A<div id=3D"yiv734840167"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,=<br> 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);font-size:12pt;font-family:arial=<br>, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div>My experience in teaching SignWriting to a g=<br>
roup of Deaf and hearing instructors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. =<br>The organizers of the event for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful, but when th=<br>e very first words were "and how will this additional writing system help M=<br>
Y students to read English" was the immediate barrier.</div><div><br></div>=<br><div>I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation =<br>because every response in the room was stacked against me. All of them want=<br>
ed the Deaf to read English in all circumstances, and honestly refused to s=<br>ee SignWriting as a writing system for any signed language, a true writing =<br>system to produce one's own language parallel to the larger population's sp=<br>
oken language. For more than an hour, my lecture was peppered with qu=<br>estions of=0A "why should I ADD to the burden=0A of the=0A Deaf" as if Deaf=<br> student were somehow the personal possession of the teachers, and they MUS=<br>
T use English in the long run, so why teach them to write and read their ow=<br>n language. </div><div><br></div><div>This is in a state where Oberlin=<br> Conservatory teaches Dance Writing, recognizing that Dance itself is a lan=<br>
guage, and you cannot describe choreography in English or any other languag=<br>e without a way to write in a diagramatic written form. </div><div><br=<br>></div><div>When people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriti=<br>
ng, a Deaf or hearing person, I say neither, she is a Dancer, and Dance is =<br>a language of movement, so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully =<br>enfranchised in using gesture based languages on an equal footing.</div><di=<br>
v><br></div><div>Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet, t=<br>he Cyrillic alphabet is the writing system of choice because of history and=<br> education. </div><div><br></div><div>One can=0A write the many mutual=<br>
ly unintelligible languages of China using a written language of pictograph=<br>s which are pronounced any number of ways whether one is speaking Mandarin,=<br> Cantonese, Sechuan, or Mongolian dialects, it remains itself a pictographi=<br>
c system not really dependent on any one of them. </div><div><br></div=<br>><div>One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet, but the alphabet o=<br>f choice is Sanskrit, used for more than 3000 years. </div><div><br></=<br>
div><div>So now we have SignWriting, able to be used for all movement based=<br> languages, I believe, in a way that is much better than any other as it is=<br> iconographic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read.&nb=<br>
sp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-fa=<br>mily:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><div style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-famil=<br>
y:times, serif;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span st=<br>yle=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Trevor=0A Jenkins=0A <bslwann=<br>
<a href="mailto:abe@GMAIL.COM">abe@GMAIL.COM</a>><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> SW=<br>-<a href="mailto:L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sen=<br>
t:</span></b> Saturday, June 4, 2011 7:11 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weig=<br>ht:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br>=0A<div i=<br>
d=3D"yiv734840167">A better comparison for the content of the SignWriting p=<br>age on the English language WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic, H=<br>ebrew, Chinese, Japanese, Linear B, Klingon, Na'vi and other <b>orthographi=<br>
c systems</b>. We need to be clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a =<br>writing scheme for signed languages. In the same way that Chinese calligrap=<br>hy is a writing scheme for spoken Chinese and similar for other spoken lang=<br>
uages with non-Latinate orthographies.<br>=0A<br>Personally I consider Sign=<br>Writing to be closer in purpose to IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) th=<br>an to written English. Lexicographers might disagree with me and suggest th=<br>
at Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to IPA. Though here as a native =<br>English speaker and second language British Sign Language speaker I would c=<br>ontend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling shapes names in Stokoe, and =<br>
the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that matter, are a hinderance to lea=<br>rning the notation. There is, of course, a similar problem with SignWriting=<br> as many of the training materials are written using ASL as an exemplar. Th=<br>
e iconic nature of SignWriting allows one to get around the problem, which =<br>a non-Latinate reader would not be able to do with IPA. I could just as eas=<br>ily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of signed languages but the point is that =<br>
the written critical form of spoken languages often bears no relation to th=<br>e way strings are actually pronounced.=0A (One only has to consider the lyr=<br>ics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call the whole thing off" to see what a m=<br>
ess standard English orthography makes of pronounciation.)<br>=0A<br>Howeve=<br>r, in one sense I agree with you; the use of an ASL story gives the wrong i=<br>mpression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Val has pointed =<br>
out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis of SignWritin=<br>g) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and manual commun=<br>ication systems.<br>=0A<br><div class=3D"yiv734840167gmail_quote">On Fri, J=<br>
un 3, 2011 at 11:21 PM, George Veronis <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofo=<br>llow" ymailto=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a>" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"=<br>
/mc/compose?to=<a href="mailto:3Dgeorge.veronis@yale.edu">3Dgeorge.veronis@yale.edu</a>"><a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a></a>></=<br>span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"yiv734840167gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=<br>
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=0A<div style=<br>=3D"word-wrap:break-word;">A number of people responded to my suggestion ab=<br>out signwriting (SW). Only two of them understood where I was coming =<br>
from and why I made the suggestion that a simpler, more straightforward pie=<br>ce is called for in the Wikipedia article. Valerie Sutton mentio=<br>ned the origins of SW and how it arose from someone without a background in=<br>
sign language. I think that all of the respondents should read and t=<br>hink about what she wrote because at the time she was also not involved in =<br>SW as it has developed. The other person who made very pertinent rema=<br>
rks is Stuart Thiessen, who went through the same experience that I have, v=<br>iz., very little knowledge at a very early stage of learning ASL. He,=<br> too, needed responses to questions that arose from very little experience =<br>
with ASL<div>=0A<div> <span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0, =<br>0, 0);font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=<br>ng:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=<br>
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium;font-family:Geneva;"><div>=0A<br=<br>>I think that communication itself must be handled with care. One has=<br> to take the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason for re=<br>
marks made and questions asked. The article in Wikipedia is in the En=<br>glish language and the topics contained therein are intended for English sp=<br>eaking people. I wrote as an English speaker and relatively ignorant =<br>
ASL user who was trying to understand an esoteric </div>=0A<div>topic.=<br> All of you must have been confronted with "Why signwriting - wh=<br>y don't they just use the text?". That's a very understandable questi=<br>
on for someone with little or no training in sign language and with no expe=<br>rience with deaf people. I have attended a total of 12 classes in ASL;=<br> for my final exam I decided to try to convey to the class that something c=<br>
alled signwriting exists. No one in a class of fifteen, not even the =<br>teacher, had ever heard of signwriting. So those of you who have been=<br> involved with SW for a long time should keep in mind that there is a world=<br>
of people who might want to know about SW and who will probably ask very s=<br>imple and elementary questions, as I did. </div>=0A<div><br></div><di=<br>v>Given what I just wrote, I would like to suggest that a statement like th=<br>
e one that Adam Frost made:</div><div><font color=3D"#1B00FF">Having a lite=<br>ral translation will actually be seen as an insult, especially to native us=<br>ers, and will make SignWriting seem to be an oppressors tool to limit how S=<br>
ign Language is used </font>must be directed to an audience very=<br> different from the vast majority of users of Wikipedia. I was comple=<br>tely perplexed by it</div>=0A<div>and it was only after thinking hard about=<br>
how in world anyone could misconstrue my simple suggestion that I realized=<br> how delicate the issue of communication is and how hard we have to think a=<br>bout the source of the question. Without giving the issue serious con=<br>
sideration, the two sides, experienced SW users and those seeking to unders=<br>tand what SW is all about, will never make contact and that would be a pity=<br>. But as long as people like Thiessen and Sutton are involved, there =<br>
is hope that the issue will not get too far out of control.</div>=0A<div><b=<br>r></div><div>With serious good intentions,</div><div>George Veronis <=<br>/div><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=<br>
div><br></div></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br cl=<br>ear=3D"all">=0A<br>-- <br>Regards, Trevor.<br><br><>< Re: deemed!<=<br>
br>=0A</div><br><br></div></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></blockquot=<br>e></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></td=<br>
></tr></table><br>--0-1022750816-1307281463=:85875--<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 18:00:13 +0200<br>From: Ingvild Roald <<a href="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM">iroald@HOTMAIL.COM</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia article - Path to Literacy<br><br>--_1c443d88-23ae-4af4-aa6a-54d558f63d88_<br>Content-Type: text/plain;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br><br>How about the two papers presented in Maastricht some years ago=2C by Stefa=<br>
n and by Sara and Kathleen? They should both be on the SignWriting site=2C =<br>and even if they are not based on scientific research=2C they were good eno=<br>ugh to be presented at a major scientific conference.<br><br>
Ingvild=20<br><br><br><br><br>Date: Sat=2C 4 Jun 2011 14:40:06 -0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG">sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG</a><br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article - Path to Literacy<br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
<br><br><br>SignWriting ListJune 4=2C 2011<br>Cherie -Attached are two documents. I believe these are what you are lookin=<br>g for? The Path to LIteracy is an excellent article... Great work... Val =<br>=3B-)<br><br><br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br>----------<br>On Jun 4=2C 2011=2C at 2:07 PM=2C Cherie Wren wrote:Shoot=2C I cant find it=<br> now... I had written a proposal to my administration to do some research =<br>using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. It is based on research by J Cummins=<br>
who did a lot of work with bilingual education. His research posits that =<br>there are two ways to reach literacy in a second language. One way is via =<br>the spoken language. Spanish speaking kids in American schools learn to sp=<br>
eak English=2C then transfer that knowledge to learning to read and write E=<br>nglish. That doesn't work so well for Deaf kids=2C who have great difficul=<br>ties learning to speak a language they cant hear. The other way that Cummi=<br>
ns proposes is via the written form of the language. Spanish speaking kids=<br> who are literate in Spanish can use written Spanish as the bridge to learn=<br>ing written English. There<br> is research out there that states that Cummins research does not apply to =<br>
Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL. But you CAN. I had hoped to do =<br>research showing that SignWriting could be the bridge that helps Deaf kids =<br>improve literacy in English=2C but that isn't going to happen now. =20<br>
cherie<br><br>From: Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Sent: Saturday=2C June 4=2C 2011 8:42<br>
AM<br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br><br>My experience in teaching SignWriting to a group of Deaf and hearing instru=<br>ctors in Ohio needs to be interjected here. The organizers of the event for=<br> teachers of ASL seemed hopeful=2C but when the very first words were "and =<br>
how will this additional writing system help MY students to read English" w=<br>as the immediate barrier.<br>I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful conversation becau=<br>se every response in the room was stacked against me. All of them wanted th=<br>
e Deaf to read English in all circumstances=2C and honestly refused to see =<br>SignWriting as a writing system for any signed language=2C a true writing s=<br>ystem to produce one's own language parallel to the larger population's spo=<br>
ken language. For more than an hour=2C my lecture was peppered with questi=<br>ons of "why should I ADD to the burden<br> of the<br> Deaf" as if Deaf student were somehow the personal possession of the teach=<br>
ers=2C and they MUST use English in the long run=2C so why teach them to wr=<br>ite and read their own language.=20<br>This is in a state where Oberlin Conservatory teaches Dance Writing=2C reco=<br>gnizing that Dance itself is a language=2C and you cannot describe choreogr=<br>
aphy in English or any other language without a way to write in a diagramat=<br>ic written form.=20<br>When people have asked me over the years who invented SignWriting=2C a Deaf=<br> or hearing person=2C I say neither=2C she is a Dancer=2C and Dance is a la=<br>
nguage of movement=2C so that both the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully en=<br>franchised in using gesture based languages on an equal footing.<br>Although one can write Russian using the Roman alphabet=2C the Cyrillic alp=<br>
habet is the writing system of choice because of history and education.=20<br>One can<br> write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using a written =<br>language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways whether one=<br>
is speaking Mandarin=2C Cantonese=2C Sechuan=2C or Mongolian dialects=2C i=<br>t remains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of t=<br>hem.=20<br>One can write Hindustani using the Roman alphabet=2C but the alphabet of ch=<br>
oice is Sanskrit=2C used for more than 3000 years.=20<br>So now we have SignWriting=2C able to be used for all movement based langua=<br>ges=2C I believe=2C in a way that is much better than any other as it is ic=<br>onographic so that it is not dependent on spoken language to be read.=20<br>
<br>From: Trevor Jenkins<br> <<a href="mailto:bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Sent: Saturday=2C June 4=2C 2011 7:11 AM<br>
Subject: Re: Wikipedia article<br><br><br>A better comparison for the content of the SignWriting page on the English =<br>language WikiPedia page would be the pages for Arabic=2C Hebrew=2C Chinese=<br>=2C Japanese=2C Linear B=2C Klingon=2C Na'vi and other orthographic systems=<br>
. We need to be clear that SignWriting is nothing more than a writing schem=<br>e for signed languages. In the same way that Chinese calligraphy is a writi=<br>ng scheme for spoken Chinese and similar for other spoken languages with no=<br>
n-Latinate orthographies.<br><br><br>Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA (Internati=<br>onal Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might disag=<br>ree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to IPA=<br>
. Though here as a native English speaker and second language British Sign =<br>Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspelling sh=<br>apes names in Stokoe=2C and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that mat=<br>
ter=2C are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is=2C of course=2C =<br>a similar problem with SignWriting as many of the training materials are wr=<br>itten using ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows one=<br>
to get around the problem=2C which a non-Latinate reader would not be able=<br> to do with IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of sig=<br>ned languages but the point is that the written critical form of spoken lan=<br>
guages often bears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounced.<br> (One only has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call th=<br>e whole thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes of=<br>
pronounciation.)<br><br><br>However=2C in one sense I agree with you=3B the use of an ASL story gives t=<br>he wrong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Val ha=<br>s pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis of =<br>
SignWriting) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and man=<br>ual communication systems.<br><br><br>On Fri=2C Jun 3=2C 2011 at 11:21 PM=2C George Veronis <george.veronis@yale.=<br>edu> wrote:<br><br>
A number of people responded to my suggestion about signwriting (SW). Only=<br> two of them understood where I was coming from and why I made the suggesti=<br>on that a simpler=2C more straightforward piece is called for in the Wikipe=<br>
dia article. Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW and how it arose f=<br>rom someone without a background in sign language. I think that all of the=<br> respondents should read and think about what she wrote because at the time=<br>
she was also not involved in SW as it has developed. The other person who=<br> made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen=2C who went through the sam=<br>e experience that I have=2C viz.=2C very little knowledge at a very early s=<br>
tage of learning ASL. He=2C too=2C needed responses to questions that aros=<br>e from very little experience with ASL<br>=20<br><br>I think that communication itself must be handled with care. One has to ta=<br>ke the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason for remarks =<br>
made and questions asked. The article in Wikipedia is in the English langu=<br>age and the topics contained therein are intended for English speaking peop=<br>le. I wrote as an English speaker and relatively ignorant ASL user who was=<br>
trying to understand an esoteric=20<br>topic. All of you must have been confronted with "Why signwriting - why do=<br>n't they just use the text?". That's a very understandable question for so=<br>meone with little or no training in sign language and with no experience wi=<br>
th deaf people. I have attended a total of 12 classes in ASL=3B for my fina=<br>l exam I decided to try to convey to the class that something called signwr=<br>iting exists. No one in a class of fifteen=2C not even the teacher=2C had =<br>
ever heard of signwriting. So those of you who have been involved with SW =<br>for a long time should keep in mind that there is a world of people who mig=<br>ht want to know about SW and who will probably ask very simple and elementa=<br>
ry questions=2C as I did. =20<br><br>Given what I just wrote=2C I would like to suggest that a statement like th=<br>e one that Adam Frost made:Having a literal translation will actually be se=<br>en as an insult=2C especially to native users=2C and will make SignWriting =<br>
seem to be an oppressors tool to limit how Sign Language is used must be d=<br>irected to an audience very different from the vast majority of users of Wi=<br>kipedia. I was completely perplexed by it<br>and it was only after thinking hard about how in world anyone could miscons=<br>
true my simple suggestion that I realized how delicate the issue of communi=<br>cation is and how hard we have to think about the source of the question. =<br>Without giving the issue serious consideration=2C the two sides=2C experien=<br>
ced SW users and those seeking to understand what SW is all about=2C will n=<br>ever make contact and that would be a pity. But as long as people like Thi=<br>essen and Sutton are involved=2C there is hope that the issue will not get =<br>
too far out of control.<br><br>With serious good intentions=2CGeorge Veronis =20<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>--=20<br>Regards=2C Trevor.<br><br><>< Re: deemed!<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> =<br>
<br>--_1c443d88-23ae-4af4-aa6a-54d558f63d88_<br>Content-Type: text/html;<br> charset=iso-8859-1<br>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br><br><html><br><head><br><style><!--<br>.hmmessage P<br>
{<br>margin:0px=3B<br>padding:0px<br>}<br>body.hmmessage<br>{<br>font-size: 10pt=3B<br>font-family:Tahoma<br>}<br>--></style><br></head><br><body class=3D'hmmessage'><br>How about the two papers presented in Maastricht some years ago=2C by Stefa=<br>
n and by Sara and Kathleen? They should both be on the SignWriting site=2C =<br>and even if they are not based on scientific research=2C they were good eno=<br>ugh to be presented at a major scientific conference.<br><br>Ingvild=20<br>
<br><br><br><br><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Sat=2C 4 Jun 2011 14:40:06 -0=<br>700<br>From: <a href="mailto:sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG">sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG</a><br>Subject: Re: Wikipedia article - Pat=<br>
h to Literacy<br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><br><br><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=3B charset=3Dunicode=<br>
"><br><meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft SafeHTML">SignWriting List<di=<br>v>June 4=2C 2011</div><div><br></div><div>Cherie -</div><div>Attached are t=<br>
wo documents. I believe these are what you are looking for? The Path to LIt=<br>eracy is an excellent article... Great work... Val =3B-)</div><div><br></di=<br>v><div></div><br><br>
<br><div></div><div><br></div><div></div><br><br><br><div></div><div><br></div><div>----------</div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 4=<br>
=2C 2011=2C at 2:07 PM=2C Cherie Wren wrote:</div><br class=3D"ecxApple-int=<br>erchange-newline"><blockquote><div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0=2C 0=2C 0)=3B=<br> background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B font-family: arial=2Chelvetica=<br>
=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><div><span>Shoot=2C I cant find it now=<br>... =3B I had written a proposal to my administration to do some resear=<br>ch using signwriting to teach Deaf kids. =3B It is based on research by=<br>
J Cummins who did a lot of work with bilingual education. =3B His rese=<br>arch posits that there are two ways to reach literacy in a second language.=<br> =3B One way is via the spoken language. =3B Spanish speaking kids =<br>
in American schools learn to speak English=2C then transfer that knowledge =<br>to learning to read and write English. =3B That doesn't work so well fo=<br>r Deaf kids=2C who have great difficulties learning to speak a language the=<br>
y cant hear. =3B The other way that Cummins proposes is via the written=<br> form of the language. =3B Spanish speaking kids who are literate in Sp=<br>anish can use written Spanish as the bridge to learning written English.&nb=<br>
sp=3B There<br> is research out there that states that Cummins research does not apply to =<br>Deaf kids--- because you can't write ASL. =3B But you CAN. =3B I ha=<br>d hoped to do research showing that SignWriting could be the bridge that he=<br>
lps Deaf kids improve literacy in English=2C but that isn't going to happen=<br> now. =3B =3B</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>ch=<br>
erie<br></span></div><div><br><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: 5px=3B padd=<br>ing-left: 5px=3B"><div style=3D"font-family: arial=2Chelvetica=2Csans-serif=<br>=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><div style=3D"font-family: times new roman=2Cnew yo=<br>
rk=2Ctimes=2Cserif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><=<br>hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">From:</span></b> Char=<br>
les Butler <=3B<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>">chazzer3332000=<br>@<a href="http://yahoo.com/" target="_blank">YAHOO.COM</a></a>>=3B<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">To:</span><=<br>
/b> <a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALE=<br><a href="http://nciacollege.edu/" target="_blank">NCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a></a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Sent:</span>=<br>
</b> Saturday=2C June 4=2C 2011 8:42<br> AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Subject:</span></b> Re: Wiki=<br>pedia article<br></font><br><br><div id=3D"ecxyiv599825412"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0=2C 0=2C 0)=3B backgr=<br>
ound-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B font-family: arial=2Chelvetica=2Csans=<br>-serif=3B font-size: 12pt=3B"><div>My experience in teaching SignWriting to=<br> a group of Deaf and hearing instructors in Ohio needs to be interjected he=<br>
re. The organizers of the event for teachers of ASL seemed hopeful=2C but w=<br>hen the very first words were "and how will this additional writing system =<br>help MY students to read English" was the immediate barrier.</div><div><br>=<br>
</div><div>I found myself tongue-tied and unable to pursue a useful convers=<br>ation because every response in the room was stacked against me. All of the=<br>m wanted the Deaf to read English in all circumstances=2C and honestly refu=<br>
sed to see SignWriting as a writing system for any signed language=2C a tru=<br>e writing system to produce one's own language parallel to the larger popul=<br>ation's spoken language.  =3BFor more than an hour=2C my lecture was pe=<br>
ppered with questions of "why should I ADD to the burden<br> of the<br> Deaf" as if Deaf student were somehow the personal possession of the teach=<br>ers=2C and they MUST use English in the long run=2C so why teach them to wr=<br>
ite and read their own language. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>This is i=<br>n a state where Oberlin Conservatory teaches Dance Writing=2C recognizing t=<br>hat Dance itself is a language=2C and you cannot describe choreography in E=<br>
nglish or any other language without a way to write in a diagramatic writte=<br>n form. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>When people have asked me over the=<br> years who invented SignWriting=2C a Deaf or hearing person=2C I say neithe=<br>
r=2C she is a Dancer=2C and Dance is a language of movement=2C so that both=<br> the Deaf and the Hearing can be fully enfranchised in using gesture based =<br>languages on an equal footing.</div><div><br></div><div>Although one can wr=<br>
ite Russian using the Roman alphabet=2C the Cyrillic alphabet is the writin=<br>g system of choice because of history and education. =3B</div><div><br>=<br></div><div>One can<br> write the many mutually unintelligible languages of China using a written =<br>
language of pictographs which are pronounced any number of ways whether one=<br> is speaking Mandarin=2C Cantonese=2C Sechuan=2C or Mongolian dialects=2C i=<br>t remains itself a pictographic system not really dependent on any one of t=<br>
hem. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>One can write Hindustani using the Ro=<br>man alphabet=2C but the alphabet of choice is Sanskrit=2C used for more tha=<br>n 3000 years. =3B</div><div><br></div><div>So now we have SignWriting=<br>
=2C able to be used for all movement based languages=2C I believe=2C in a w=<br>ay that is much better than any other as it is iconographic so that it is n=<br>ot dependent on spoken language to be read. =3B</div><div><br></div><di=<br>
v><br></div><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: arial=2Chelvetica=<br>=2Csans-serif=3B"><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B font-family: times=2Cser=<br>if=3B"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"fon=<br>
t-weight: bold=3B">From:</span></b> Trevor Jenkins<br> <=3B<a href=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a>"><a href="mailto:bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM">bslwannabe@GMAIL.COM</a></a>>=<br>
=3B<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"ma=<br><a href="mailto:ilto%3ASW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">ilto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>"><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a></=<br>
a><br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Sent:</span></b> Saturday=2C =<br>June 4=2C 2011 7:11 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold=3B">Subject:<=<br>
/span></b> Re: Wikipedia article<br></font><br><br><div id=3D"ecxyiv599825412">A better comparison for the content of the Sign=<br>Writing page on the English language WikiPedia page would be the pages for =<br>
Arabic=2C Hebrew=2C Chinese=2C Japanese=2C Linear B=2C Klingon=2C Na'vi and=<br> other <b>orthographic systems</b>. We need to be clear that SignWriting is=<br> nothing more than a writing scheme for signed languages. In the same way t=<br>
hat Chinese calligraphy is a writing scheme for spoken Chinese and similar =<br>for other spoken languages with non-Latinate orthographies.<br><br><br>Personally I consider SignWriting to be closer in purpose to IPA (Inter=<br>
national Phonetic Alphabet) than to written English. Lexicographers might d=<br>isagree with me and suggest that Stokoe notation is the obvious parallel to=<br> IPA. Though here as a native English speaker and second language British S=<br>
ign Language speaker I would contend that the reliance on ASL fingerspellin=<br>g shapes names in Stokoe=2C and the use of Latinate symbols in IPA for that=<br> matter=2C are a hinderance to learning the notation. There is=2C of course=<br>
=2C a similar problem with SignWriting as many of the training materials ar=<br>e written using ASL as an exemplar. The iconic nature of SignWriting allows=<br> one to get around the problem=2C which a non-Latinate reader would not be =<br>
able to do with IPA. I could just as easily say that HamNoSys is the IPA of=<br> signed languages but the point is that the written critical form of spoken=<br> languages often bears no relation to the way strings are actually pronounc=<br>
ed.<br> (One only has to consider the lyrics of the Gershwins' song "Let's call th=<br>e whole thing off" to see what a mess standard English orthography makes of=<br> pronounciation.)<br><br><br>However=2C in one sense I agree with you=3B the use of an ASL story giv=<br>
es the wrong impression of SignWriting ... that it is solely for ASL. As Va=<br>l has pointed out (thanks Val for correcting my poor history of the genesis=<br> of SignWriting) this orthography is applicable to all signed languages and=<br>
manual communication systems.<br><br><br><div class=3D"ecxyiv599825412gmail_quote">On Fri=2C Jun 3=2C 2011 at 11=<br>:21 PM=2C George Veronis <span dir=3D"ltr"><=3B<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=<br>
=3D"mailto:<a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a>"><a href="mailto:george.veronis@yale.edu">george.veronis@yale.edu</a></a>>=3B</span=<br>> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"ecxyiv599825412gmail_quote" style=3D"borde=<br>
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204=2C 204=2C 204)=3B padding-left: 1ex=3B"><br><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word=3B">A number of people responded to my =<br>suggestion about signwriting (SW).  =3BOnly two of them understood wher=<br>
e I was coming from and why I made the suggestion that a simpler=2C more st=<br>raightforward piece is called for in the =3BWikipedia article.  =3B=<br>Valerie Sutton mentioned the origins of SW and how it arose from someone wi=<br>
thout a background in sign language.  =3BI think that all of the respon=<br>dents should read and think about what she wrote because at the time she wa=<br>s also not involved in SW as it has developed.  =3BThe other person who=<br>
made very pertinent remarks is Stuart Thiessen=2C who went through the sam=<br>e experience that I have=2C viz.=2C very little knowledge at a very early s=<br>tage of learning ASL.  =3BHe=2C too=2C needed responses to questions th=<br>
at arose from very little experience with ASL<div><br><div> <span style=3D"border-collapse: separate=3B color: rgb(0=2C 0=2C 0)=<br>=3B font-style: normal=3B font-variant: normal=3B font-weight: normal=3B le=<br>
tter-spacing: normal=3B line-height: normal=3B text-indent: 0px=3B text-tra=<br>nsform: none=3B white-space: normal=3B word-spacing: 0px=3B font-size: medi=<br>um=3B font-family: Geneva=3B"><div><br><br>I think that communication itself must be handled with care.  =3BOn=<br>
e has to take the time and trouble to understand the basis and the reason f=<br>or remarks made and questions asked.  =3BThe article in Wikipedia is in=<br> the English language and the topics contained therein are intended for Eng=<br>
lish speaking people.  =3BI wrote as an English speaker and relatively =<br>ignorant ASL user who was trying to understand an esoteric =3B</div><br><div>topic.  =3BAll of =3Byou must have been confronted with "Why s=<br>
ignwriting - why don't they just use the text?".  =3BThat's a very unde=<br>rstandable question for someone with little or no training in sign language=<br> and with no experience with deaf people. =3BI have attended a total of=<br>
12 classes in ASL=3B for my final exam I decided to try to convey to the c=<br>lass that something called signwriting exists.  =3BNo one in a class of=<br> fifteen=2C not even the teacher=2C had ever heard of signwriting.  =3B=<br>
So those of you who have been involved with SW for a long time should keep =<br>in mind that there is a world of people who might want to know about SW and=<br> who will probably ask very simple and elementary questions=2C as I did. &n=<br>
bsp=3B</div><br><div><br></div><div>Given what I just wrote=2C I would like to suggest that=<br> a statement like the one that Adam Frost made:</div><div><font color=3D"#1=<br>
b00ff">Having a literal translation will actually be seen as an insult=2C e=<br>specially to native users=2C and will make SignWriting seem to be an oppres=<br>sors tool to limit how Sign Language is used =3B =3B</font>must be =<br>
directed to an audience very different from the vast majority of users of W=<br>ikipedia.  =3BI was completely perplexed by it</div><br><div>and it was only after thinking hard about how in world anyone could mi=<br>
sconstrue my simple suggestion that I realized how delicate the issue of co=<br>mmunication is and how hard we have to think about the source of the questi=<br>on.  =3BWithout giving the issue serious consideration=2C the two sides=<br>
=2C experienced SW users and those seeking to understand what SW is all abo=<br>ut=2C will never make contact and that would be a pity.  =3BBut as long=<br> as people like Thiessen and Sutton are involved=2C there is hope that the =<br>
issue will not get too far out of control.</div><br><div><br></div><div>With serious good intentions=2C</div><div>George Veroni=<br>s  =3B</div><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=<br>
<br></div><div><br></div></font></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div=<br>><br><br clear=3D"all"><br><br>-- <br>Regards=2C Trevor.<br><br><=3B>=3B<=3B Re: deemed!<br><br>
</div><br><br></div></div></div></div><br><br></div></div></blockquote></di=<br>v></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> </body><br>
</html>=<br><br>--_1c443d88-23ae-4af4-aa6a-54d558f63d88_--<br><br>------------------------------<br><br>End of SW-L Digest - 4 Jun 2011 to 5 Jun 2011 (#2011-110)<br>*********************************************************<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>
<div>Fernando C. Capovilla, PhD<br>Professor Associado, Instituto de Psicologia, USP<br>Coord Lab Neuropsicolinguística Cognitiva Experimental, IP-Usp<br>Av. Prof. Mello de Morais 1721, São Paulo, SP, 05508-030</div>
<div><a href="http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html</a></div>
<div>email: <a href="mailto:fcapovilla3@gmail.com" target="_blank">fcapovilla3@gmail.com</a><br>site: <a href="http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html</a></div>
<div>
<div>Veja nossos novos livros (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais), e baixe alguns, de: <a href="http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/livros.html" target="_blank">http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/livros.html</a></div>
<div>Baixe artigos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de: <a href="http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/artigos.html" target="_blank">http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/artigos.html</a></div>
<div>Baixe capítulos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de: <a href="http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/capitulos.html" target="_blank">http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/capitulos.html</a></div>
<div>Assista à entrevista concedida à TV Cultura sobre dislexia: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8DLAGG-Pg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8DLAGG-Pg</a></div>
<div>Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com lexicografia da Língua de Sinais Brasileira (Libras):</div>
<div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Sign_Language" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Sign_Language</a></div>
<div>Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com escrita de sinais de Libras em SignWriting: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting</a><br><br> </div></div>
<br>