<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>That's precisely it. There are several views on how to "write what you see" since not everyone "sees" the same. While I may not write that way myself, I am not saying it is wrong; just a different way of writing it. So how would you write clown, Stefan? ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>Adam<br><br>On Sep 12, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Stefan Wöhrmann <<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Charles, Valerie, Adam
and friends, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">well – this has
been a v e r y intense discussion in the
past. From time to time it became an emotional discussion. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Now looking at your
wonderful book about hand shapes and their matching symbols, I felt pretty much
disappointed and confused to find some symbols with this kind of
interpretation, violating my intuitive understanding of the
“thumb-rule”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I do not agree with your
idea of how the hand looks like. I do not follow your point of view.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Why ? Well Charles
explained the point of view I understand best. And if you would look at the
good old “Lessons in SignWriting” second edition page 36 you will
understand – that at least some of us “old scribes”
prefer the thumb to be seen where it belongs ... right thumb right side
of the symbol. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The whole confusion is
connected to the fact that originally there have been more but three basic
orientations. I discussed it several times and have had a hard time to explain
my doubts and ideas about different interpretations. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">This discussion came up
several times in the past. It is a pity that people feel frustrated to accept
the use of symbols if it does not go along with their understanding.
But I can understand the feeling of irritation. Personally I follow
Valeries advice to write my documents the way I think it feels best to my
understanding. And of course – I do no teach these symbols in question
the way they are shown in this list because my brain refuses to accept the
logic you try to explain. I simply do not see, what you would like me to
see. I can’t – no matter how intense I try.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I agree that sometimes
the fingers or the thumb on the right side touching the nose or the ear
are somehow funny – but at least this kind of representation does
not hurt the general concept: write what you see. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Personally I would not
write the sign for clown with this “left hand” – smile
(I understand that you – Adam and Valerie can see this hand
as a “right hand” – but I cannot. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Same problem with some
other symbols for hand shapes ;-( and this “direction
of fingers is important”- idea – I do not agree with that either.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">When I started to
“learn” the meaning of SW-symbols 11 years ago, I followed the
Parkhurst interpretation. It made absolute sense to me and everything seemed to
be consistent. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So now we can restart to
understand that there are at least two different “schools” to use
some symbols differently. It might be worth to just have a table showing a
given symbol from the two points of view – this would not blame anybody
but give a chance to accept what is going on – We do not follow the same
way of thinking. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Stefan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Von:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> SignWriting
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Im Auftrag von </span></b>Adam Frost<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Gesendet:</span></b> Montag, 12. September
2011 18:30<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">An:</span></b> <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU"><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Betreff:</span></b> Re: NEW: Clown correction</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">I'm assuming the sign you are referring to is:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><image001.gif><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">While I personally don't do it with this down movement, we aren't
talking about that at the moment. ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Technically speaking, the hand symbol is the correct one for what the
symbol was intended to mean. If you look at the book that Val and I just wrote,
the image of my hand and the symbol match.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><image002.jpg><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"> I know that the thumb seems to be on the wrong side; so do the
fingers. There is a reason for that. This isn't official because I need to test
it, but from personal observation I have found that when a handshape has the
thumb interacting with the other fingers (ie as if it can hold a physical
object), the symbol construction points the fingers to the center of the body
and is static and does not rotate like most of the other symbols. So this hand
symbol falls in that category. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Now, my understanding is that there are some who say that these hand
symbols should rotate just like the other symbols. That means this writing of
clown should be:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><image003.gif><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">The problem is that since the hand is on the left side of the face,
many readers feel that is for the left hand as opposed to the right hand. That
is the reason all those symbols were made static and not rotate like the rest.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">I hope this helps clarify why the hand symbol used is actually not
wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">Adam<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt">On Sep 12, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Charles Butler wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
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<td valign="top" style="padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Please look at "CLOWN" on the ASL Sign
Puddle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">The fingers point to the right and the hand is
white, therefore it is the left hand, yet the arrows indicate the right hand.
if you turn it at a slight angle then the thumb is clearly on the wrong side,
pointing up the axle on the left side of the square. This, to me, is the
easiest test. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">If I were to see this sign in an ASL SW exam I would
mark it wrong. This is not a matter of "variant" this is simply
wrong. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">If I cannot mark a test unambiguously then there is
something wrong. The hand is not "pinching the nose" from the side
it is "facing the nose".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">As I can't edit it, I can't fix it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Charles Butler<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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