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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hello Valerie and friends
of the sw-list, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I am so sorry to read
this comment. Sounds as if you feel hurt Valerie. Just want to make clear – it
is not my intention to cause any trouble! And I am convinced that it is not Charles
idea to blame anybody but to discuss a spelling issue. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On the other side - it
is an excellent chance to discuss the use and meaning of the SW symbols. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I know that you do not
want your students to follow in blind obedience ... Insight is helpful to
teach the system that has been invented by YOU.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What is going on right
now? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Obviously we try to
reopen the same discussion we have had so many times before. – smile - <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What is to be done if you
decide to publish a specific spelling as the “correct” one – while at the same
moment scribes with experience feel uncomfortable with this definition. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Of course I can continue
to write my documents and dictionary entries the way I used to do – following the
“thumb-rule” which makes sense to me and which can be seen throughout the whole
system as a consistent aspect. And I know that you do not panic to see
spellings you experience different from your favourite options. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On the other hand – what is
the idea of using symbols in a writing system. There should be a chance to
read, to understand to identify clearly what is meant. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As I mentioned before –
looking at my hand – palm to the face – there is no chance to understand the
spelling if you put the thumb on the left side. I would identify this as a l e
f t hand. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>See attached graphic –
kind of test for SignWriting students. The question would be: What is the
correct spelling for the hands as shown on the fotos? A, B, C, D <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Stefan <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Von:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Im
</span></b></span></font><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Auftrag von </span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Valerie
Sutton<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Gesendet:</span></b> Montag, 12. September
2011 23:12<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>An:</span></b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Betreff:</span></b> Put the blame on me ;-)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Charles -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Put the blame on me, but don't blame Adam, who is working with me - He
is a wonderful part of my family...has helped me and my family in so many ways
-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Of course my writing is inconsistent - so just put the blame on me -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Writing the palm of the hand towards the center of the face is what we
were talking about with the sign for CLOWN, and what you see on the web is my
writing...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>and the sign for BUG, which is the side view of the hand, is another
situation and different than the white palm toward the face - and that is my
writing too -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>so there you see it is my fault and not Adam's!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Val ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-----------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Sep 12, 2011, at 12:03 PM, Charles Butler wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Adam, Stefan, Valerie, et al. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The fact that you and Valerie agree in what I must
strongly DISAGREE is exactly the point. You have published, in a book,
something that is counter-intuitive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If you overlay the symbol on the hand it DOES NOT
MATCH. No matter what you do, the THUMB is on the right not on the left.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I must respectfully disagree with you, Adam, and
agree with Stefan and Mr. Parkhurst. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I follow the orientation of the hand first. Is it
toward me or away from me. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If it is away from me, then the thumb MUST be on the
actual hand as the photo is, but not as the drawing. If it looks awkward, I
would put the hand directly over the face so that it would lay on top of it,
which is the whole point of the clown face, it lays on top of the face, not
to one side or the other. Then one can clearly see which hand it is, that the
orientation is wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Quoting your published notebook is EXACTLY the
point. I disagree to the point that I would edit that textbook marking it
wrong if it came across my publishing house in sign writing to publish. I did
it in Brazil any number of times until they got the point. Don't make a sign
identical with its mirror image, it simply ISN'T. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The fact that I rotate this same hand around and it
now is exactly the same glyph when pointed in the opposite direction is just
plain wrong. It is not a disagreement, it makes no logical sense, the grasp
is happening in the opposite direction. You have rotated the hand, it cannot
grasp left and right the same way. I have two hands, they are mirror images
of each other. A grasp with one away must be the same glyph as the other
pointed toward me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I go for awkward writing and consistency every time.
You showed that with "crumble". The hands are up there, and the
thumbs are on the outside. You admit it there, so your argument is
inconsistent. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>You can write it in a textbook any way you want to,
that does not make it any less WRONG. I cannot teach this, I cannot bend my
mind around it. It does not make intuitive sense. Two orientations, no matter
WHAT fingers are involved cannot be the same glyph.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I will continue to teach, and point out that the
software is wrong. It is software, and it NEEDS to be fixed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>You are working with educators, and I think that the
educators who are NOT just "shrug and make it go away" are on the
better side. When they work with Deaf students in classrooms and get the same
questions every day, I think the educators know more than the software.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If I were in your classroom, Adam, I would
contradict you at every "turn" as it is not logical and I cannot
bring myself to write what is simply wrong. I would strongly disagree, and
Valerie knows it. I don't buy the "grasp" logic as I'd rather write
the sign on the opposite side.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If the sign for Clown, Cockroach and Bug are
compared, it is clear that COCKROACH (written by me) shows the right hand on
the left side of the body, with the correct orientation, it is still the
right hand, rotated 45 degrees with the left hand rotated 45 degrees and the
hands crossed. BUG is the right hand at the halfway point so that the thumb
presses the nose (written by VALERIE using her own textbook notes to move the
hand until the features line up) so your argument simply does not hold water.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>When the inventor of the system has to put the right
hand on the left side of the body so that a simple orientation rule does not
get violated, I think that the orientation we have proposed is the better
one. She makes sure that the thumb STAYS on the right place, sticking out so
it should stay there. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Charles<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
--- On <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Mon, 9/12/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <i><span
style='font-style:italic'><<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>></span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
From: Stefan Wöhrmann <<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>><br>
Subject: AW: NEW: Clown correction<br>
To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
Date: Monday, September 12, 2011, 2:08 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=yiv1076263412>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Charles,
Valerie, Adam and friends, </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>well – this
has been a v e r y intense discussion in
the past. From time to time it became an emotional discussion. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now looking
at your wonderful book about hand shapes and their matching symbols, I felt
pretty much disappointed and confused to find some symbols with this kind of
interpretation, violating my intuitive understanding of the “thumb-rule”</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I do not
agree with your idea of how the hand looks like. I do not follow your
point of view.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Why ?
Well Charles explained the point of view I understand best. And if you
would look at the good old “Lessons in SignWriting” second edition page 36
you will understand – that at least some of us “old scribes” prefer the
thumb to be seen where it belongs ... right thumb right side of the symbol. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The whole
confusion is connected to the fact that originally there have been more but
three basic orientations. I discussed it several times and have had a hard
time to explain my doubts and ideas about different interpretations. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This
discussion came up several times in the past. It is a pity that people feel
frustrated to accept the use of symbols if it does not go along with
their understanding. But I can understand the feeling of irritation.
Personally I follow Valeries advice to write my documents the way I think it
feels best to my understanding. And of course – I do no teach these symbols
in question the way they are shown in this list because my brain refuses to
accept the logic you try to explain. I simply do not see, what you
would like me to see. I can’t – no matter how intense I try.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree that
sometimes the fingers or the thumb on the right side touching the nose or the
ear are somehow funny – but at least this kind of representation does
not hurt the general concept: write what you see. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Personally I
would not write the sign for clown with this “left hand” – smile
(I understand that you – Adam and Valerie can see this hand as a
“right hand” – but I cannot. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Same problem
with some other symbols for hand shapes ;-( and this
“direction of fingers is important”- idea – I do not agree with that either.
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When I
started to “learn” the meaning of SW-symbols 11 years ago, I followed the
Parkhurst interpretation. It made absolute sense to me and everything seemed
to be consistent. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So now we
can restart to understand that there are at least two different “schools” to
use some symbols differently. It might be worth to just have a table showing
a given symbol from the two points of view – this would not blame anybody but
give a chance to accept what is going on – We do not follow the same way of
thinking. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Stefan</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Von:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Im
Auftrag von </span></b>Adam Frost<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Gesendet:</span></b> Montag, 12. September
2011 18:30<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>An:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Betreff:</span></b> Re: NEW: Clown
correction</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'm assuming the sign you are referring to is:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><img border=0 width=69 height=80
id=yiv1076263412c22a6d01-7cde-470e-8c26-23661a5c8bb4
src="cid:image001.gif@01CC724D.BA78D0F0" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>While I personally don't do it with this down
movement, we aren't talking about that at the moment. ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Technically speaking, the hand symbol is the correct
one for what the symbol was intended to mean. If you look at the book that
Val and I just wrote, the image of my hand and the symbol match.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><img border=0 width=747 height=704
id=yiv1076263412c6e1b67f-2484-4efa-874a-9613aafef4ae
src="cid:image002.jpg@01CC724D.BA78D0F0" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> I know that the thumb seems to be on the wrong
side; so do the fingers. There is a reason for that. This isn't official
because I need to test it, but from personal observation I have found that
when a handshape has the thumb interacting with the other fingers (ie as if
it can hold a physical object), the symbol construction points the fingers to
the center of the body and is static and does not rotate like most of the
other symbols. So this hand symbol falls in that category. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Now, my understanding is that there are some who say
that these hand symbols should rotate just like the other symbols. That means
this writing of clown should be:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><img border=0 width=60 height=60
id="yiv1076263412_x005f_x0033_13e942b-bfac-4b17-8f02-d62ddf2df285"
src="cid:image003.gif@01CC724D.BA78D0F0" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The problem is that since the hand is on the left
side of the face, many readers feel that is for the left hand as opposed to
the right hand. That is the reason all those symbols were made static and not
rotate like the rest.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I hope this helps clarify why the hand symbol used
is actually not wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Adam<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Sep 12, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Charles Butler wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0>
<tr>
<td valign=top style='padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Please look at "CLOWN" on the ASL Sign
Puddle.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The fingers point to the right and the hand is
white, therefore it is the left hand, yet the arrows indicate the right
hand. if you turn it at a slight angle then the thumb is clearly on the
wrong side, pointing up the axle on the left side of the square. This, to
me, is the easiest test. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If I were to see this sign in an ASL SW exam I
would mark it wrong. This is not a matter of "variant" this is
simply wrong. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>If I cannot mark a test unambiguously then there
is something wrong. The hand is not "pinching the nose" from the
side it is "facing the nose".<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>As I can't edit it, I can't fix it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=yiv1076263412msonormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Charles Butler<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:
0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><img border=0 width=69 height=80
id="_x0037_5558087-ba99-4083-ad0d-f6072401588d"
src="cid:image001.gif@01CC724D.BA78D0F0" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes><img
border=0 width=747 height=704 id="_x0038_00a51b8-40c0-4a37-bc0f-27de782ae671"
src="cid:image002.jpg@01CC724D.BA78D0F0" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes><img
border=0 width=60 height=60 id="_x0034_1411c2c-35da-408d-b402-f2d0f4d91e94"
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