<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>SignWriting List</div><div>September 16, 2011</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you, Charles! ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>-------</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>On Sep 16, 2011, at 5:02 AM, Charles Butler wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" style="position: static; z-index: auto; "><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit; ">Thank you Valerie for your excellent explanation. As long as glyphs are understood as approximations and that for some the rotations and reflections may be interpreted in opposite fashion, then we have a working system.<div><br></div><div>Charles</div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>-------------------------</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">SignWriting List<div>September 15, 2011</div><div><br></div><div>Hi Charles -</div><div>The encoding of the ISWA 2010 does not know anything about right or left hands. The Symbol Palette of 96 hand symbols (see attached) has nothing to do with right or left...The top part of the grid shows rotations going counter-clockwise, and the lower part of the grid are symbols that are flopped and rotating clockwise - So there is no judgement of right or left - The encoding simply has a number for each symbol in each flop and rotation - that is all -</div><div><br></div><div><img height="960" width="720" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" id="ee58e429-5db7-4ea8-877e-ac5b38eddee6" src="cid:09AF61B6-9C9E-46D2-9FEC-A8972A6D0957"></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This means that these Symbol Palettes can be applied to writing Receptively or Expressively (which switches right with left), or any other writing style, such as the palm facing issues we were discussing earlier...and all of these writiing styles use the same Symbol Palettes of the ISWA 2010 with complete freedom, and with everything they need.</div><div><br></div><div>And the SignSpelling column, in SignPuddle for sorting dictionaries by sign-symbols, is completely free as well - the program does not guess which hand is dominant, or which hand is right or left - the writer states which hand is dominant in the SignSpelling column, so that way no mistake can be made - The writer has the freedom to choose his or her sorting method.</div><div><br></div><div>So the ISWA 2010 is neutral on any writing styles and can be used in many different ways, and still remain stable for programmers - that is the beauty of it - believe me, I can see room for improvement, but I know that programmers and users need stability, and so since we can build when we need to, the stability combined with flexibility gives us all we need.</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding "constructed symbols" that are not a part of the official encoding... (that we build ourselves using ISWA 2010 parts)...that too can be beneficial to the SignWriting Community in the long run. It will be easy in SignPuddle to search for those "constructed symbols" to give us an understanding of what is needed for the future. And through special programming in some software, the constructed symbols could become searchable, so it is all positive... in other words...the contructed symbols will give us information we need to move forward - so I am really excited about the future - it is very positive -</div><div><br></div><div>Val ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>PS. I have fulfilled two out of 5 orders - I am getting there -</div><div><br></div><div>----------</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Sep 15, 2011, at 8:02 PM, Charles Butler wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">The problem I see with adding a new handshape, or "writing what I see" is that in indexing, the SW 2010 system, if indexed by handshape, would show my writing of what I see as the right hand on the clown face, if indexed by the system, would be listed as a left hand in the actual coding. <div><br></div><div>If I were to do a one-to-one correspondence in a verbal system such as Sign Text, we'd get opposite hands connected to the same face and handshape, requiring individual editing, not a clear data merge. </div><div><br></div><div>How can this be resolved? I'm thinking of this on a programming basis. What I write as a "right" hand is seen by the numbering of the coding as a "left" hand. </div><div><br></div><div>Although it has been stated that each of us are free to use the system as we wish, the actual encoding of the SW 2010 presumes that one
writing is preferred, and will be interpreted, if indexed by the system, as correct. We both can't write the same sign with opposite hands and have them interpreted by the same system as meaning the same thing.</div><div><br></div><div>Charles Butler</div><div><br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 9/14/11, Charles Butler <i><<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>Subject: Re: AW: Three-claw solution<br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Date: Wednesday, September 14, 2011, 3:37 PM<br><br><div id="yiv707662644"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font:inherit;">I'm trying to see a way that it is very clear for all handshapes for three claws going face forward. This is claws, not bent fingers. No one seems to be objecting to completely bent
fingers, it's these claw hands that seem to be giving people woogies.<div><br></div><div>Charles</div><div><br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 9/14/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <i><<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px;"><br>From: Stefan Wöhrmann <<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>><br>Subject: AW: Three-claw solution<br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>Date: Wednesday, September 14, 2011, 3:12 PM<br><br><div id="yiv707662644">
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<div class="yiv707662644Section1"><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">Hi Charles, </span></font></p><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">I do not understand your
intention. There is no need for any additional symbol ... The three claw hand
shape looks perfect to me. </span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;">Stefan</span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"></span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
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</span></font></div><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold;">Von:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;"> SignWriting
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Im Auftrag von </span></b>Charles Butler<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Gesendet:</span></b> Mittwoch, 14. September
2011 00:37<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">An:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Betreff:</span></b> Re: Three-claw solution</span></font></p>
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<td valign="top" style="padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Here is a solution I came up with that parallels the
circle spot for straight fingers pointing forward. I propose a square spot or
box for curves going forward for the flat hand. The square is to show the
nail of the hand. If the curves go left or right, they are drawn that way,
but if the curves actually bend forward or back you'd show the nail. </span></font></p>
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<div><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">That way it is a true position, not a compromise
position that can be confused.</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">I tried to create this in powerpoint but lost the
picture.</span></font></p>
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<div><p class="yiv707662644MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;">Charles</span></font></p>
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