<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18928"></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156252118-17102011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Hi Erika, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156252118-17102011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156252118-17102011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>thank you soooo much for your comment. Hopefully this helps to
clarify! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156252118-17102011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=156252118-17102011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Stefan </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=de class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Von:</B> SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign
Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <B>Im Auftrag von </B>Erika
Hoffmann-Dilloway<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
17:22<BR><B>An:</B> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: AW:
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><FONT style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size=2>Just to
chime in, as Stefan said, </FONT><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size=2 face=Tahoma>Mundbilder
isn't meant to represent the whole articulation of the word. It just represents
what mouth movements are visible on the face when signers using DGS perform
signs. And, as he mentioned, we found that these mouth movements were performed
even by signers who did not know the German word that might be assumed to be
associated with the movement</FONT><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size=2> - the movements were
simply acquired as part of the sign. </FONT><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size=2>One need not associate
them with speech.</FONT><FONT style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif"
size=2> As Ingvild and Stefan have also noted, sometimes the part of the sign
that appears on the face is the element of that creates a minimal pair with
another sign. So even in a very pared down way of writing DGS, these mouth
movements would be useful. <BR>Yes, it would be very cumbersome to write all the
heads for the whole articulated German words using </FONT><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)" color=navy
size=2 face=Arial>Mundbildschrift</FONT><FONT
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size=2>. But, as Charles notes,
most of those movements aren't visible and don't need to be written in
</FONT><FONT style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif" size=2
face=Tahoma>Mundbilder, which usually only needs to show a few
heads.</FONT><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Charles Butler <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>What it comes down to is "you would not demand a Spanish
speaker to learn German to communicate in his or her own home but here
you are demanding a DSL primary user of DSL as his or her own Native
Language to learn German in order to communicate to the wider culture.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Where is DSL as DSL, not as essentially a coding system for a
signed language to interpret German.
<DIV class=im><BR><BR>Charles Butler<BR><A
href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</A><BR><A href="tel:240-764-5748"
target=_blank value="+12407645748">240-764-5748</A><BR>Clear writing
moves business forward.<BR><BR></DIV>--- On <B>Mon, 10/17/11, Charles
Butler <I><<A href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM"
target=_blank>chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:
Charles Butler <<A href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM"
target=_blank>chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</A>><BR>Subject: Re: AW:
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU"
target=_blank>SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</A><BR>Date: Monday,
October 17, 2011, 9:52 AM
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>From this message, I see we are understanding
each other, your system is used for Deaf chlidren to learn to
read and interpret and write spoken German and translate from
German sign language into proper spoken or written German.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>As a bridge system, it is doing its job. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I am now looking at ASL written in SW without and
independent of an English translation, written to be ASL as ASL
not as a pidgin English on the hands to be translated into
English for the hearing and speaking English population. The
purposes are different.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>However, most educators in the US are looking at teaching
English to the Deaf and though communicating with the Deaf in
ASL they are looking at getting the Deaf to understand and read
and write spoken English. The purpose of the classroom is to
teach English, not to examine and honor ASL in its own right as
its own language.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So, ASL is still not an independent language, but a
colonized language, one which is not a language "of the
marketplace" with its own history, but one essentially
secondary. We once had a newspaper in that language, assuming
ASL as the first and only language of a Deaf
population. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I tried to teach SW to a class of Deaf educators in Ohio.
Their ONLY argument was "why should I teach SW to ANY Deaf
children when what I want to do is teach them ENGLISH", not some
other writing system. "They", the Deaf children", don't have
time to learn another writing system on top of
English. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>They'd undersstand your GebaerdenSchrift because its only
purpose is to teach German to Deaf kids, not be used as an
everyday common writing system for Deaf Germans whose only
language is German Sign Language. <BR><BR>Charles
Butler<BR><A href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</A><BR><A
href="tel:240-764-5748" target=_blank
value="+12407645748">240-764-5748</A><BR>Clear writing moves
business forward.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan
Wöhrmann <I><<A href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM"
target=_blank>stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</A>></I></B>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From:
Stefan Wöhrmann <<A
href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM"
target=_blank>stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</A>><BR>Subject:
AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU"
target=_blank>SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</A><BR>Date:
Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:35 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>...<BR><BR>[Message
clipped] </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Erika
Hoffmann-Dilloway<BR>Assistant Professor of Anthropology<BR>Oberlin
College<BR></BODY></HTML>