<font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2">Just to chime in, as Stefan said, </font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Tahoma" size="2">Mundbilder isn't meant to represent the whole articulation of the word. It just represents what mouth movements are visible on the face when signers using DGS perform signs. And, as he mentioned, we found that these mouth movements were performed even by signers who did not know the German word that might be assumed to be associated with the movement</font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"> - the movements were simply acquired as part of the sign. </font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2">One need not associate them with speech.</font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2"> As Ingvild and Stefan have also noted, sometimes the part of the sign that appears on the face is the element of that creates a minimal pair with another sign. So even in a very pared down way of writing DGS, these mouth movements would be useful. <br>
Yes, it would be very cumbersome to write all the heads for the whole articulated German words using </font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" color="navy" face="Arial" size="2">Mundbildschrift</font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" size="2">. But, as Charles notes, most of those movements aren't visible and don't need to be written in </font><font style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" face="Tahoma" size="2">Mundbilder, which usually only needs to show a few heads.</font><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Charles Butler <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit" valign="top">What it comes down to is "you would not demand a Spanish speaker to learn German to communicate in his or her own home but here you are demanding a DSL primary user of DSL as his or her own Native Language to learn German in order to communicate to the wider culture.<div>
<br></div><div>Where is DSL as DSL, not as essentially a coding system for a signed language to interpret German. <div class="im"><br><br>Charles Butler<br>
<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>
<a href="tel:240-764-5748" value="+12407645748" target="_blank">240-764-5748</a><br>
Clear writing moves business forward.<br><br></div>--- On <b>Mon, 10/17/11, Charles Butler <i><<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM" target="_blank">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px">
<br>From: Charles Butler <<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM" target="_blank">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>Subject: Re: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift<br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:52 AM<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font:inherit" valign="top">From this message, I see we are understanding each other, your system is used for Deaf chlidren to learn to read and interpret and write spoken German and translate from German sign language into proper spoken or written German.<div>
<br></div><div>As a bridge system, it is doing its job. </div><div><br></div><div>I am now looking at ASL written in SW without and independent of an English
translation, written to be ASL as ASL not as a pidgin English on the hands to be translated into English for the hearing and speaking English population. The purposes are different.</div><div><br></div><div>However, most educators in the US are looking at teaching English to the Deaf and though communicating with the Deaf in ASL they are looking at getting the Deaf to understand and read and write spoken English. The purpose of the classroom is to teach English, not to
examine and honor ASL in its own right as its own language.</div><div><br></div><div>So, ASL is still not an independent language, but a colonized language, one which is not a language "of the marketplace" with its own history, but one essentially secondary. We once had a newspaper in that language, assuming ASL as the first and only language of a Deaf population. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I tried to teach SW to a class of Deaf educators in Ohio. Their ONLY argument was "why should I teach SW to ANY Deaf children when what I want to do is teach them ENGLISH", not some other writing system. "They", the Deaf children", don't have time to learn another writing system on top of English. </div>
<div><br></div><div>They'd undersstand your GebaerdenSchrift because its only purpose is to teach German to Deaf kids, not be used as an everyday common writing system for Deaf Germans whose only language is German Sign Language. <br>
<br>Charles
Butler<br>
<a href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>
<a href="tel:240-764-5748" value="+12407645748" target="_blank">240-764-5748</a><br>
Clear writing moves business forward.<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <i><<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM" target="_blank">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;padding-left:5px">
<br>From: Stefan Wöhrmann <<a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM" target="_blank">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a>><br>Subject: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift<br>To: <a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:35 AM<br><br><div>
</div></blockquote></div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div></blockquote></div></td></tr></tbody></table>...<br><br>[Message clipped] </blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway<br>
Assistant Professor of Anthropology<br>Oberlin College<br>