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Hi Val and all,<br><br>thanks for this dicussion. I felt suddenly at loss - even in spelling my ordinary Norwegian (spoken) language I do that sometimes ...<br><br>With your writing, we could read this as rotations around the axes on the side of the little finger, which is what they do in the sign. We could also read this sign as you say - no sideward movemnet. Then the hands would just turn upside donw and land in the same place as before.<br><br>Imagine the hands are laying on a tabletop. They stay in touch with that tabletop on the side of the little finger throuout the sign (a bit difficult to do with the beginning handshape - try changing that to flat hand - like opening a double window on a christmas calendar. <br><br>Discussing this is a good thing - onne gets to think things through. Actually, I beleive the sign is very readable both in your writing and in mine - thanks<br><br>Ingvild
<br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:36:34 -0800<br>From: sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG<br>Subject: Re: flipping and moving - what symbol<br>To: SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><br>
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<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft SafeHTML">SignWriting List<div>November 14, 2011</div><div><br></div><div>Well, the way you wrote it, there is a tiny bit of traveling happening because you wrote traveling arrows…If you want it to be completely in place with zero travel to the right and left, then you would use a Rotation Symbol without an arrow, that means staying in one place while you rotate…that is why we developed the Rotation Symbols to begin with…because we did not always want to travel, and if we stayed in one place, we needed to know which handshape happened first and which one second, without using a traveling arrow - so that is why the Rotation Symbols were developed - Here is an example of staying in one place with no travel side:</div><div><br></div><div><img id="ecx36b77ed5-aa63-4976-a052-e5604c9386f8" src="cid:D847EF3C-44EA-4607-B4F7-567B25716882" height="189" width="256"></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-------------------</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Nov 14, 2011, at 11:06 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:</div><br class="ecxApple-interchange-newline"><blockquote><div class="ecxhmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><div dir="ltr">Thanks - I did look for the travel-with-rotation symbol , but writing both posistions would be enough, it seems. Sorry I did send two signs - the questen was about the one on the right. The first one means 'equal', the second one 'equation'. The hands flip/ rotate with the little finger side as axis - no separate travel, just the one that results from this 180 degree rotation. Agree this is enough - just had to make sure - this is part of a paper I just wrote for a terminology journal ...<br><br>Ingvild<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><br><br><div><hr id="ecxstopSpelling">Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 19:54:47 +0100<br>From:<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a><br>Subject: AW: flipping and moving - what symbol<br>To:<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><br><div class="ecxSection1"><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB">I agree – I can read the sign perfectly!</span></font></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-GB"> </span></font></p><div><div class="ecxMsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><hr tabindex="-1" size="2" align="center" width="100%"></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">Von:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span>SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU]<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Im Auftrag von<span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Valerie Sutton<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Gesendet:</span></b><span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span>Montag, 14. November 2011 19:38<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">An:</span></b><span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Betreff:</span></b><span class="ecxApple-converted-space"> </span>Re: flipping and moving - what symbol</span></font></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">SignWriting List</span></font></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">November 14, 2011</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hello Ingvild and everyone -</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thanks for this question...</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What you have written below tells me the following:</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">1. the two hands start contacting each other, with the index finger on a fist, palms parallel and facing the floor</span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">2. then the two hands move to the side, the right to the right side and the left to the left side</span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">3. at the end of the movement side, the handshapes have become flat hands parallel to the floor with the palms up, and the thumbs are out to the side</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">if I have read this correctly, then I don't think any other symbol is necessary -</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">You could write a Rotation Symbol, but Rotation Symbols do not travel to the side - they stay in one place - there are Rotation arrows combined with straight arrows in the ISWA 2010, but they are advanced symbols and I don't think any Rotation Symbol is necessary if I read it correctly above…</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Val ;-)</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">-----</span></font></div></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p></div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p><div><div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Nov 14, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:</span></font></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br><br></span></font></div><div><div><div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><span style="orphans: 2; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;">The hands move posistion as the flip - what would be the right sybol?<br><br>Ingvild<span class="ecxapple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></font></p><div><div class="ecxMsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><hr id="ecxstopSpelling" size="2" align="center" width="100%"></span></font></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> </span></font></p></div></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><img id="ecx_x0038_fec2b26-8090-4710-93d8-4e0d6c558729" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CCA307.433BE8C0" height="78" width="260"></span></font></div></div></div><p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span> </font></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div> </div></body>
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