<html><head><base href="x-msg://59/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Stefan,<div><br></div><div>I don't want you to think that I don't think that Mundbilder or SpeechWriting doesn't have use. I actually think quite the opposite. I have actually used it in my writing to show when someone is mouthing a word, where that word is very important. I just don't see Rafaela's question as how to write the mouthing of the words "brumm" and "papa", but as common mouth movement or gestures in LGP. I may be wrong in seeing Rafaela's question as something different because I am not a native to LGP. Having said that, I agree with out that there shouldn't be a guessing game when the exact movements are very important. Since I am assuming that these are common mouth movements within LGP, it is most likely that there are several nuance differences in how different people do the mouth movements and therefore would actually be more of a guessing game to be so exact with something that people have never thought about.</div><div><br></div><div>It's like in ASL, there are several mouth gestures that people do that are not always done the same. For example, the video that I did for "brumm" might be done with a more pouted lips if it were done by my sister or puffed cheeks if it were done by my younger brother, but they are all the same meaning. The way that I wrote it could be read and understood to mean the same thing by each of us. This is very different than if we were mouthing each other's names because the exact mouth movement is very important. So I see mouthing and mouth movements as two different things with mouthing benefiting from SpeechWriting. I hope that helps make clear why I chose to write they way that I did.</div><div><br></div><div>Adam</div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:19 AM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="DE" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="Section1" style="page: Section1; "><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Hi Rafaela, Valerie, Adam, ...<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Well in order to „understand“ what the reader is supposed to do, it is better to minimize the guessing game.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">- smile -<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">As I understood Rafaela – she asked for a way to write a sign that shows a mouth as if saying (without voice) “brumm” or “papa”<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">This is what we call “Mundbilder” within SignWriting – This kind of speechwriting is already pretty good defined and it can be adopted to various “spoken languages” if you focus on the symbols that are already defined...<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">In this case it is no problem to write four head circles and the additional “Mundbilder”<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">In the end you show up with a written sign that is exact and easy to understand, to perform, to read ...<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Of course there are other signs in sign languages that ask for mouth-movements and facial expressions that are not associated with spoken language but with mimic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Stefan<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-align: center; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">Von:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Im Auftrag von<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>Rafaela Silva<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Gesendet:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Montag, 18. Juni 2012 04:25<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">An:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Betreff:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: AW: Mouth symbols</span></font><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">Hello Stefan,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">thanks for respondig.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">By your answer I gather that you use 4 differents faces do represent one lip movement, that's right? What I want is just one so I can aply to a sign.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">Rafaela<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 12pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; margin-top: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; ">> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:07:18 +0200<br>> From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">stefanwoehrmann@GOOGLEMAIL.COM</a><br>> Subject: AW: Mouth symbols<br>> To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Hi Rafaela,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> you probably know that in Germany we use a lot of "Mundbilder"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> I defined a set of symbols to represent these lip and tongue movements that<br>> go along with what you can see if a person is speaking (even without sound)<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> I just wrote your two signs<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> 1) it is a short "Brumm" a long "U" could be interpreted differently but in<br>> general I do not distinguish between long and short vorcals if it is not for<br>> the purpose of articulation.<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> 2) Papa - is easy to understand.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Have a great day<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Stefan<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----<br>> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages<br>> [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Rafaela Silva<br>> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Juni 2012 23:41<br>> An:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> Betreff: Mouth symbols<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Hello everyone. Hope everthing is well.<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> I have 2 doubts/questions and I hope someone can help me!<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> 1 - SW have a facial symbol for the expression "bruumm" that we do with the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> mouth, for example, when we want to imitate or explain the sound of a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> motorcycle?<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> 2 - SW have a symbol that represents the mouth opening and closing<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> consecutively? (As babies do whe they are starting to talk, like<br>> "papapapapa")<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Thank you.<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> Rafaela<br>><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div></div></div><img name="brumm Papa.png" id="a28645c2-84b0-47bd-80c2-bdc640b5cecf" height="300" width="252" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:8631B5D1-B6F1-4790-BE09-0B81A38583E2"></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>