<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>I strongly agree with you on multiple variations on signs. That was what brought me to SW in the first place, saving old signs. These are five distinct signs. <br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>Example: Birthday.</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><img
src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS14410S22510S20f00S22f04S30006M41x55S1441019xn7S30006n18xn17S20f0013x27S2251018xn21S22f0414x41&pad=10&name=birthday">(birthday - regional from Norfolk, VA)</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div> <img src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS15d02S20500S26600S20b00S15d01S15d09S36d00M54x48S20b0026xn21S2660026xn2S20500n5x37S15d0919xn48S15d0131xn40S36d00n21x1S15d02n14x15&pad=10&name=birthday">(birthday - "my birth")<br><br><img src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS1c507S20500S22a04S20500S30004M32x66S20500n4x55S20500n5x19S22a04n6x36S30004n18xn18S1c5077x17&pad=10&name=birthday">(California - Adam Frost - Valerie Sutton)<img
src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=M28x75S34000n18xn18S205003x64S1c5273x16S22a042x45&pad=10&name=birthday">Variation by <font size="-1">Arturo Ruvalcaba</font> (I'm curious about this one, as the orientation seems impossible)<br><br><img src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS15d02S15d0aS2d200S10010S28903M23x52S15d0an20xn25S15d02n8xn20S2d200n3xn52S100104x21S28903n24x25&pad=10&name=birthday">(This is the one that I learned back in 1975)<br><br><img src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=M39x36S33010n21xn18S2080024xn5S1ea1016x4S22f04n3x22&pad=10&name=birthday">(Natasha Escalada-Westland - this I have heard is from Philadelphia)<br><br><br><br><br></div><div>Charles Butler<br>chazzer3332000@yahoo.com<br>240-764-5748<br>Clear writing moves business forward.<br></div> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div
style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> MARIA GALEA <maria.azzopardi@UM.EDU.MT><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September 27, 2012 5:36 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?<br> </font> </div> <br>Thank you for your response Charles - helps me understand better the role<br>and work carried out by an editor. If you are checking and consulting<br>about your choices - then they are NOT just subjective choices, I think<br>they are well-informed choices. Also the 'flagging' entries is a very<br>good idea. Flagging 'experiment' 'practice' etc etc.<br><br>However the 9 variants of spelling the same sign in ASL
provide<br>interesting data about the evolution of an orthography - that's my point.<br>It would be a shame not to keep record of it. (Imagine very old texts of<br>written English..nowadays these texts are ground for research and shed<br>light on how written orthography English evolved).<br><br><br>> Dear Maria,<br>><br>> Right now we are working on a Wikipedia, and I use the ASL Puddle to<br>> compare entries. When I see a difference in a sign, I post that sign for<br>> discussion to ensure that what I write or read is actually accurate and<br>> the clearest spelling. Sometimes there are nine different entries for a<br>> given gloss, and I have to choose the one that to me is most accurate.<br>> Granted, that is entirely subjective, which your linguists may be<br>> disgruntled at, but if, over time, a body of literature grows in<br>> Wikipedia, more and more users will be using familiar writings that have<br>>
become the "default" user-most-friendly writings. <br>><br>> If one sign were written expressive, and another receptive, they are the<br>> same sign, they are reverses of each other, but if a sign is written that<br>> shows my right hand doing something and using a left arrow to show its<br>> movement, that is wrong on its face, factually wrong, not simply<br>> stylistically variant. You can't write an EEE sound with an AY, it can't<br>> be read. A movement up is not a movement out. <br>><br>> Those are the kinds of edits that I have been looking at in LIBRAS. The<br>> published LIBRAS dictionary has descriptions as well as pictures, and if<br>> the arrows and palm facings don't match the description or the video, then<br>> the video and the description win. I'm going through the published<br>> dictionary, no more than 4 or 5 signs at a time, to put into the<br>> SignPuddle the most accurate
transcription I can. In working with the<br>> editors of that published dictionary, they knew that there were a number<br>> of errors that would require a teacher certified in the system to note and<br>> correct before they put them on line. That's what I am doing, and if I am<br>> confused, a take the time to check with three or four native users of<br>> LIBRAS before I even put it in the SignPuddle. <br>><br>> I don't remove things out of any dictionary without consulting the<br>> writers, but if something seems to be an "experiment" I am going to flag<br>> them as "experiment" so I can leave them alone, particularly if I don't<br>> know the source, don't have any kind of definition, and they look like<br>> scribbles. <br>><br>> The SignPuddle is an amazing resource, and I don't want to see it less<br>> accessible, but there must be a way to separate out a "real" sign that has<br>> been vetted and
compared to one which is just a "stab in the dark". My way<br>> is to quote the source, to put my name on it so that people can contact<br>> me, and try to put a clear definition of the sign, which sometimes fails<br>> to completely convey a translation. <br>><br>> i expect the same courtesy from others, don't put something in the<br>> SignPuddle as an "experiment" without stating so, and be willing to put<br>> your name on it. Think of it as an exercise board, if you must, but I'm a<br>> teacher, and part of my job is pointing out things that are "errors" not<br>> simply "variations."<br>> <br>> Charles Butler<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>> 240-764-5748<br>> Clear writing moves business forward.<br>><br>><br>> ________________________________<br>> From: MARIA GALEA <<a
ymailto="mailto:maria.azzopardi@UM.EDU.MT" href="mailto:maria.azzopardi@UM.EDU.MT">maria.azzopardi@UM.EDU.MT</a>><br>> To: <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:28 PM<br>> Subject: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?<br>><br>> Wow, what has happened here is really interesting, and it's something<br>> that's been on my mind for a long time.<br>><br>> For starters this is another clear indicatin that signwriting is becoming<br>> widespread.<br>><br>> In the SLLING list there was a discussion about HamNoSys and SignWriting -<br>> and sign linguists were criticizing SignPuddle Dictionaries for not being<br>> traditional 'dictionaries' in the linguistic sense (1 lexeme: 1 entry)-<br>> and they are right - but this does not mean that SignPuddles are not a<br>> rich
resource in themselves. They store written sign language entries not<br>> just by linguists but by common folk, and this makes all entries in<br>> SignPuddle an invaluable resource - since for a writing system to be truly<br>> a writing system it needs to be accepted, and written by a community of<br>> language users. If SignPuddle was a linguistic database, it would lose its<br>> uniqueness. What makes SignPuddle so strong - paradoxically is what<br>> linguists criticize as weak - the way data is entered into Puddle in such<br>> a non-academic way : i see this a major strength :)<br>><br>> I see the public SignPuddles as editing tools for anyone using SignWriting<br>> who wishes to write and store SignWritten entries in a particular<br>> language.<br>><br>> However my question now: are the public SignPuddles truly public? To have<br>> an editor in a public SignPuddle 'respelling' and deleting entries to
me<br>> indicates that they are not very public. It might be a good time to<br>> re-think what the aims and purposes of Public SignPuddles are. I can<br>> understand that an editor would have to remove 'mistakes' etc..but the<br>> mistakes are his/her interpretation of mistakes - at this early stage the<br>> development of a writing system..mistakes may very well NOT be mistakes,<br>> just different ways of writing the same thing..sometimes very different<br>> ways but still the variance of writing would provide data which is<br>> valuable for anyone studying the evolution of a writing system such as<br>> SignWriting.<br>><br>> Maybe what could be done is that the public SignPuddles remain or become<br>> truly public, so that all entries are allowed to stay there..BUT then of<br>> course I understand that the actual editors (with their different reasons<br>> and targets for using SignWriting) cannot use these
the Public SignPuddles<br>> as they are, but they would take whatever they wish from the public<br>> SignPuddles to their semi-private puddle (that can be viewed but not<br>> edited).<br>><br>> Hope this makes sense.<br>> Maria<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>>> SignWriting List<br>>> September 27, 2012<br>>><br>>> Hello Stefan and everyone!<br>>> Thank you for your message below. I have pasted a Google translation in<br>> English below�<br>>><br>>> These SignPuddles are growing!<br>>><br>>> Maybe we need separate SignPuddle files for some countries and their<br>> sign<br>>> languages, so that different purposes can be supported within the same<br>> sign language?<br>>><br>>> Let's think about what would be best later� Maybe the DELEGS related<br>> SignPuddle needs to be separate from the general public's German Sign<br>> Language SignPuddle,
that would be for beginners to try to learn to<br>> write<br>>> and so forth, and both SignPuddles would be accessible for reading, but<br>> the DELEGS related SignPuddle would not be open to the general public<br>> for<br>>> writing? Just a thought...<br>>><br>>> Thank you everyone, for your remarkable work� It is so exciting to see<br>> all<br>>> that is being accomplished...<br>>><br>>> Val ;-)<br>>><br>>> -------<br>>><br>>> English translation of Stefan's message:<br>>><br>>> Hello Steve, Valerie, Charles and Oscar,<br>>><br>>> There is a simple reason why the characters are gone. I'm<br>>> the responsible editor of the German SignPuddles and have these entries<br>> tonight deleted!<br>>><br>>> At least times already great that we can now talk about it. Often I<br>> delete that is misspelled or twice or three
times<br>>> Entries made by beginners, without ever a response to<br>>> . experience<br>>><br>>> Often, it is also different ;-)<br>>><br>>> ... I get emails where someone points out that he also<br>>> Want to learn to write SignWriting. This writer then asks for<br>>> Feedback, help, support on the first write attempt.<br>>><br>>> What is new is that our German SignPuddle a really great use<br>>> in Delegs project experienced.<br>>><br>>> With the fantastic Delegseditor we can in a few minutes<br>>> Creating training materials for teaching German.<br>>><br>>> <a href="http://www.delegs.com/DelegsPage/" target="_blank">http://www.delegs.com/DelegsPage/</a><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> It does not matter if you LBG - or create documents DGS<br>>> want to be used by the students then to German or<br>>> Single sign or want to learn
German Sign Language.<br>>><br>>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8DbLcif3dnA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8DbLcif3dnA</a><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> Overall, such a dictionary then makes more sense if a certain standard /<br>> Quality assurance is maintained.<br>>><br>>> I try through tireless efforts on for many, many years<br>>> . reach Meanwhile, I have written far more than 35000 gestures and<br>> Wheelbarrow full of gestures created written documents for the<br>> classroom.<br>>> ;-)<br>>><br>>> I want to avoid so that the number of additional search terms<br>>> Variations mentioned, the creation of a rapid<br>>> SignWriting documents difficult for my third graders.<br>>><br>>> The characters that I deleted today night were sometimes wrong<br>>>
written, not to exploit some within the German language.<br>>><br>>> So it makes sense that you might explain Oscar under which<br>>> You bring in your sign Geichtspunkt entries in the German SignPuddle.<br>>><br>>> Take for example the gesture with ID id00008 -<br>>><br>>> You can find this gesture under the search word "no" -<br>>> Mh - and why not, you might say.<br>>><br>>> If you question a movement parallel to the execution of the hands is<br>> Floor display outside with appropriate hand shape - and if you<br>>> Such entries are not exactly the same time for text production but<br>> require other purposes, it makes sense to the search word entry a<br>> unusual characteristic letters preceded eg "Xidnicht"<br>>> Then would the gesture other in this form with my students and<br>>> Users to sign written documents do not show up when they are in the<br>> Keyword
line write "not" the word.<br>>><br>>> Maybe for your project even the "Puddle staff" would be ideal. So for a<br>> chance purely private / local database<br>>> together to support your purpose.<br>>><br>>> 'm Curious what exactly you have chosen as a research object.<br>>><br>>> I just looked at SignPuddle and found that under<br>>> id numbers were reinstated a few gestures.<br>>><br>>> I lack the time in each case to make the correction work.<br>>> At the same time I want to make as a responsible editor that<br>>> as many (smile) entries are displayed correctly.<br>>><br>>> This naturally leads to a conflict ... but as I said, maybe I<br>>> I still do not understand exactly what is involved in your work ...<br>>><br>>><br>>> Until then, all the best<br>>><br>>> Greetings Stefan W�hrmann<br>>><br>>>
---------<br>>> On Sep 27, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Stefan W�hrmann wrote:<br>>><br>>>> Hallo Steve, Valerie, Charles und Oscar,<br>>>> Es gibt einen einfachen Grund, warum die Zeichen verschwunden sind. Ich<br>> bin<br>>>> der verantwortliche Editor des deutschen SignPuddles und habe diese<br>> Eintr�ge<br>>>> heute Nacht gel�scht!<br>>>> Zumindest ist ja schon mal toll, dass wir nun dar�ber reden k�nne. Oft<br>> l�sche ich n�mlich falsch geschriebene oder doppelt und dreifach<br>> vorgenommene Eintr�ge von Anf�ngern, ohne jemals wieder eine Reaktion<br>> zu<br>>>> erleben.<br>>>> H�ufig ist es aber auch anders ;-)<br>>>> ... dann erhalte ich emails, in denen jemand darauf hinweist, dass er<br>>>> auch<br>>>> Geb�rdenSchrift schreiben lernen m�chte. Dieser Schreiber bittet dann<br>> um<br>>>> R�ckmeldung,
Hilfe, Unterst�tzung bei den ersten Schreibversuchen. Neu<br>> ist nun, dass unser deutsches SignPuddle eine ganz wunderbare<br>> Verwendung<br>>>> im Delegs-Projekt erlebt.<br>>>> Mit dem Delegseditor k�nnen wir in wenigen Minuten fantastische<br>> Schulungsunterlagen f�r den Deutschunterricht erstellen.<br>>>> <a href="http://www.delegs.com/DelegsPage/" target="_blank">http://www.delegs.com/DelegsPage/</a><br>>>> Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob man LBG - oder DGS Dokumente erstellen<br>> m�chte, die von den Sch�lern dann genutzt werden, um Deutsch oder<br>> Einzelgeb�rden oder Deutsche Geb�rdensprache lernen zu wollen.<br>> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8DbLcif3dnA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8DbLcif3dnA</a><br>> Insgesamt macht so ein W�rterbuch dann mehr Sinn, wenn ein gewisser<br>>
Standard<br>>>> /Qualit�tssicherung eingehalten wird.<br>>>> Das versuche ich durch unerm�dlichen Einsatz seit vielen, vielen Jahren<br>> zu<br>>>> erreichen. Inzwischen habe ich weit mehr als 35000 Geb�rden geschrieben<br>> und<br>>>> Schubkarren voll von Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten f�r den Unterricht<br>> erstellt.<br>>>> ;-)<br>>>> Ich m�chte also verhindern, dass die Suchworte etliche zus�tzliche<br>> Variationen aufz�hlen, die ein z�giges Erstellen von<br>>>> Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten auch f�r meine Drittkl�ssler erschweren. Die<br>> Zeichen, die ich heute Nacht gel�scht habe, waren zum Teil falsch<br>> geschrieben, zum Teil im Rahmen des Deutschunterrichts nicht zu<br>> verwerten.<br>>>> Es macht also Sinn, dass Sie Oscar vielleicht darlegen, unter welchem<br>> Geichtspunkt Sie Ihre Geb�rdeneintr�ge im Deutschen
SignPuddle<br>> einbringen.<br>>>> Nehmen wir beispielsweise die Geb�rde mit der ID id00008 -<br>>>> Sie finden diese Geb�rde unter dem Suchwort "nicht" -<br>>>> Mh - warum auch nicht, k�nnte man meinen.<br>>>> Wenn es Ihnen darum geht eine Bewegungsausf�hrung der H�nde parallel<br>> zum<br>>>> Boden nach au�en mit entsprechender Handform darzustellen - und wenn<br>> Sie<br>>>> gleichzeitig exakt solche Eintr�ge nicht f�r Textproduktion sondern f�r<br>> andere Zwecke ben�tigen, macht es Sinn, dem Suchworteintrag eine<br>> au�ergew�hnliche Kennbuchstabenfolge voranzustellen z.B. "xidnicht"<br>> Dann w�rde diese Geb�rde in dieser Form bei meinen Sch�lern und anderen<br>> Nutzern f�r Geb�rdenSchriftdokumente nicht auftauchen, wenn sie in der<br>> Suchwortzeile das Wort "nicht" schreiben.<br>>>> M�glicherweise w�re f�r
Ihr Projekt sogar das "Personal Puddle" ideal.<br>> Damit<br>>>> erhalten Sie die Chance eine rein private/lokale Datenbank<br>>>> zusammenzustellen, um Ihre Zwecke zu unterst�tzen.<br>>>> Bin neugierig, was genau Sie als Forschungsgegenstand gew�hlt haben.<br>> Gerade habe ich im SignPuddle nachgeschaut und festgestellt, dass unter<br>> id-nummern wieder ein paar Geb�rden eingestellt wurden.<br>>>> Mir fehlt die Zeit in jedem Einzelfall die Korrekturarbeit zu leisten.<br>> Gleichzeitig m�chte ich als verantwortlicher Editor sicherstellen, dass<br>> m�glichst viele (smile) Eintr�ge korrekt dargestellt sind.<br>>>> Das f�hrt nat�rlich zu einem Konflikt,... aber wie gesagt, vielleicht<br>> habe<br>>>> ich noch nicht genau verstanden, worum es bei Ihrer Arbeit geht ... Bis<br>> dahin alles Gute<br>>>> Gr��e Stefan W�hrmann<br>>>>
-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----<br>>>> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages<br>>>> [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>] Im Auftrag von Oscar Koller<br>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. September 2012 16:28<br>>>> An: <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>>>> Betreff: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared?<br>>>> Hey Steve, and all the list,<br>>>> thanks for your message.<br>>>> The signmaker:<br>>>> <a href="http://signbank.org/swis/signmaker.php" target="_blank">http://signbank.org/swis/signmaker.php</a> it seems it is not part of your<br>> swis-server that you provide on github, but on above mentioned website<br>> I<br>>>> see, that it is
GPL3 licensed. Can I get it somehow? if there is the<br>> need for a little coding and adjusting to our system, that is no<br>> problem.<br>>>> When doing our annotations in public signpuddle (annotating our glosses<br>> to signwriting), we need a way to link back the signpuddle entries to<br>> our video database. we would use ids to give that information. probably<br>> that was the reason, why the entries got removed. We denoted the id in<br>> the "text" field. now we shifted to adding the id to the source field.<br>> then it is not displayed too big and hopefully doesn't annoy anybody.<br>> What do you think? Is that ok?<br>>>> Thanks,<br>>>> Oscar.<br>>>> Am 27.09.2012 15:45, schrieb Steve Slevinski:<br>>>>> Greetings Oscar Koller,<br>>>>> It looks like your entries were deleted by an editor. I do not know<br>> why. This shouldn't have happened.
It was very inconsiderate. Please<br>> let me know if it happens again.<br>>>>> If you send me the export, I can add back the deleted entries. In the<br>> German dictionary, writing with heads is the current writing style of<br>> Stefan W�hrmann. Question for Stefan, should we split into<br>> two<br>>>>> German puddles? When dealing with spelling examples, dictionary<br>>>>> lookup,<br>>>>> and general use: I can see the benefit of having the body of work<br>> based<br>>>>> on particular rules of spelling.<br>>>>> No free ways to edit SignWriting on a local machine. Work in<br>> progress.<br>>>>> 2013 should be an amazing year for SignWriting editors. I hope we can<br>> maintain compatibility with SignPuddle Online. It is a great example<br>> of<br>>>>> great writers from all over the world.<br>>>>>
Valerie's non-profit does offer private puddles where you can set the<br>> security for who can view, who can add, and who can edit. There is<br>> also<br>>>>> the PersonalPuddle, a client side version of SignPuddle Online for Mac<br>> or Windows. Easy to install on Linux too. The import / export is for<br>> entire puddles or single entries. These services are available for a<br>> fee or private agreement.<br>>>>> Regards,<br>>>>> -Steve<br>>><br>>><br><br><br><br> </div> </div> </div></body></html>