<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Practically, I would think a lookup
table would be needed - where every expressive sign has a
receptive sign assigned to it and perhaps a mapping adjustment.
Then the symbol coordinates would need to be mirrored and the
adjustments and substitutions made. <br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
On 10/2/2012 11:47 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY156-W789124E561DF9A2FBA676D2860@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style>
<div dir="ltr">
Hi Oscar,<br>
<br>
I'm sorry, but I do not think that mirroring the video is a
solution. It would be like viewing a left-handed signer, and you
would have to remember the other conversions. <br>
Mathematically, the receptive/expressive signing spaces are
symmetrically placed/ mirrored according to a vertical line
halfway between the signer and the viewer. <br>
If all symbols were following the same rule when swirched
between left/right and forward/backward, this could be managed
mathematically. <br>
In SignWriting, some symbols change filling (hand symbols), as
well as orientation; whereas other symbols just change direction
(forward/backward) and others stay just the same. <br>
It is possible to work through the whole set of symbols and make
sets/ groups of symbols that behave in the same way, and write
the rules for them. But it is a big job.<br>
<br>
I still wish you good luck with your work, and I'm sure that one
day we will get this program, when someone gets the funding,<br>
<br>
Ingvild <br>
<br>
<div>> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 17:17:37 +0200<br>
> From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM">oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM</a><br>
> Subject: Re: annotation in receptive rather than
expressive view point<br>
> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> <br>
> Just another idea:<br>
> <br>
> what about simply mirroring the video to be transcribed?
That could be <br>
> easily done! And then, the transcription is easily done
in expressive form.<br>
> <br>
> Oscar.<br>
> <br>
> Am 02.10.2012 14:56, schrieb Charles Butler:<br>
> > Thanks Ingvild,<br>
> ><br>
> > I am steadily going through the DEIT LIBRAS
dictionary and putting it on<br>
> > line (with permission). It gives me a chance to read
the description,<br>
> > look at both the illustration and the signwriting
and transcribe it<br>
> > again. It's more than 8000 signs, so by the time we
get it all in, it<br>
> > should rival the ASL dictionary in scope. I'm hoping
to get permission<br>
> > to work with INES (the sign language school in Rio
de Janeiro) to add<br>
> > the signs they have which are not currently in DEIT
Libras.<br>
> > Charles Butler<br>
> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > 240-764-5748<br>
> > Clear writing moves business forward.<br>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > *From:* Ingvild Roald <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM"><iroald@HOTMAIL.COM></a><br>
> > *To:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 2, 2012 7:02 AM<br>
> > *Subject:* Re: annotation in receptive rather than
expressive view point<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi Charles,<br>
> ><br>
> > I was answering to the 'translate in your head'
problem - which I see as<br>
> > easier if it is done manually, not just cognitively.
I do understand the<br>
> > differnce between machine translation and manual/
personal translation,<br>
> > and I do see your point. I hope that someday w will
have an automatic<br>
> > translation from video, but that will be at least as
hard as<br>
> > voice-recognition systems. For natural langugaes,
that is most often a<br>
> > huge task, because of the many personal and
dialectical differences. - I<br>
> > think that making an avatar signing from what is
written in expressive,<br>
> > to be viewed in receptive mode, is an easier and
therefore more<br>
> > available sort of program. To acheive this, the
automatic transformation<br>
> > between expressive and receptive writing would be a
step. But this needs<br>
> > time, and funding. In teh meantime, we have to
struggle along doing this<br>
> > tranformation by body and mind, and making the
dictionary puddles as<br>
> > well as the litterature puddles and others seadily
bigger and better.<br>
> ><br>
> > Ingvild<br>
> ><br>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 03:36:31 -0700<br>
> > From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a><br>
> > Subject: Re: annotation in receptive rather than
expressive view point<br>
> > To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Ingvild, I understand, what I am talking about is
machine translation,<br>
> > and the machine has to be taught to read a video, as
is, receptive, and<br>
> > translate that into expressive. The point of machine
translation is just<br>
> > that, having a sufficiently large recognition
program to translate a<br>
> > third-party into expressive. Humans can internalize
and write, a machine<br>
> > has to be taught to do so.<br>
> ><br>
> > Sometimes watching a video I may get a hand wrong,
or a twist in the<br>
> > wrong direction, and if I write down what I see, I
can then correct it<br>
> > to the opposite. That's my bias, and my early
history with SignWriting,<br>
> > writing whatever I see, whether on my hands or
someone else's.<br>
> > Charles Butler<br>
> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > 240-764-5748<br>
> > Clear writing moves business forward.<br>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > *From:* Ingvild Roald <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM"><iroald@HOTMAIL.COM></a><br>
> > *To:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 2, 2012 6:09 AM<br>
> > *Subject:* Re: annotation in receptive rather than
expressive view point<br>
> ><br>
> > As I see it, the easier way to convert from
receptive to expressive for<br>
> > writing, is to view the video and copy the sign you
see by doing it<br>
> > yourself. Then you write what you do, the sign as
you are making it from<br>
> > viewing the video. That is, do the translation
/transistion manually<br>
> > rather than 'in your head'.<br>
> ><br>
> > All the best,<br>
> ><br>
> > Ingvild<br>
> ><br>
> > > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:02:50 +0200<br>
> > > From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM">oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM</a><br>
> > > Subject: annotation in receptive rather than
expressive view point<br>
> > > To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Hi Charles,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > thanks for your answer.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > > Oscar, as you have an assistant annotating
video tapes, trying to<br>
> > > > translate in your head to an expressive
point of view may be driving<br>
> > > > you crazy.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Yes, I have been thinking about that too. And
it would be preferable to<br>
> > > do annotation from the receptive view point.
However, I need the<br>
> > > transcriptions in an expressive view point in
order to match all the<br>
> > > other entries in SignPuddle (as I use them to
initialise my system). The<br>
> > > manual annotations are intended to serve as
evaluation of the<br>
> > > initialized system, thus they need to match.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > If there was an automatic (mathematical) way of
converting receptive<br>
> > > into expressive view points, then we could do
the "easier" annotation.<br>
> > > But I learnt from Steve Slevinski, that this
has not been implemented<br>
> > > and to me it doesn't seem trivial to implement
it.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Or does anybody think differently?<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Regards, Oscar.<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Am 28.09.2012 13:51, schrieb Charles Butler:<br>
> > > > Oscar, as you have an assistant annotating
video tapes, trying to<br>
> > > > translate in your head to an expressive
point of view may be<br>
> > driving you<br>
> > > > crazy. One project in Belo Horizonte is
using receptive SignWriting<br>
> > > > specifically when annotating video tapes
so that you see parallel<br>
> > > > movements, not mirror movements when you
look at them side by side. You<br>
> > > > write what you see on the videotape, not
reverse it to your own hands.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > What this means is that the videotaped
person's left hand is on your<br>
> > > > right, and the videotaped person's right
hand is on your left. You have<br>
> > > > to remember that you are writing another
person's hands, not your own,<br>
> > > > so when you look in a dictionary like
Delegs or any of the current<br>
> > > > SignPuddles, you will not find what you
see on a videotape, but its<br>
> > > > expressive equivalent.<br>
> > > > Charles Butler<br>
> > > > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > > > 240-764-5748<br>
> > > > Clear writing moves business forward.<br>
> > > ><br>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > > > *From:* Charles Butler
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM"><chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM></a><br>
> > > > *To:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> > > > *Sent:* Friday, September 28, 2012 7:29 AM<br>
> > > > *Subject:* Re: help with signwriting<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Oscar,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Reply, in the first sign, you are using a
"both hands" arrow when the<br>
> > > > hands are moving separately. If you are
bringing the hands back toward<br>
> > > > yourself, you need two arrows toward
yourself, put them next to each<br>
> > > > hand rather than in the middle. This is a
common mistake as I'd be able<br>
> > > > to read it, but the hands are not moving
in a common path. This is a<br>
> > > > common mistake, a single arrow is only
used when both hands are<br>
> > actually<br>
> > > > together.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > In the second sign, your left hand is
pointed downward, but you are<br>
> > > > using a right hand arrow moving twice. Use
a left hand arrow or a right<br>
> > > > hand, not a mix. You could move your right
hand in this fashion, but<br>
> > > > your hand would be twisted outward rather
awkwardly, unlikely that this<br>
> > > > is what you mean.<br>
> > > > Charles Butler<br>
> > > > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>
> > > > 240-764-5748<br>
> > > > Clear writing moves business forward.<br>
> > > ><br>
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> > > > *From:* Oscar Koller
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM"><oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM></a><br>
> > > > *To:* <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>
> > > > *Sent:* Friday, September 28, 2012 6:06 AM<br>
> > > > *Subject:* help with signwriting<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Hello everybody,<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I added following appended 4 entries to
the German Sign Puddle. The<br>
> > > > editors noted in each case that the
writing is not correct. Could<br>
> > > > anybody explain to me, what should be
changed?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Thanks<br>
> > > > Oscar.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>