<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>One would think that this would be easy, but it's not a mirror, it's a front and back switch as well, you are looking through the back of the person so the arrows and directions change systematically. I tried just mirroring and it's not a left-right mirror, it's a front back mirror. <br></span></div><div> </div><div>Charles Butler<br>chazzer3332000@yahoo.com<br>240-764-5748<br>Clear writing moves business forward.<br></div> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Oscar Koller <oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:17 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: annotation in receptive rather than expressive view point<br> </font> </div> <br>
Just another idea:<br><br>what about simply mirroring the video to be transcribed? That could be <br>easily done! And then, the transcription is easily done in expressive form.<br><br>Oscar.<br><br>Am 02.10.2012 14:56, schrieb Charles Butler:<br>> Thanks Ingvild,<br>><br>> I am steadily going through the DEIT LIBRAS dictionary and putting it on<br>> line (with permission). It gives me a chance to read the description,<br>> look at both the illustration and the signwriting and transcribe it<br>> again. It's more than 8000 signs, so by the time we get it all in, it<br>> should rival the ASL dictionary in scope. I'm hoping to get permission<br>> to work with INES (the sign language school in Rio de Janeiro) to add<br>> the signs they have which are not currently in DEIT Libras.<br>> Charles Butler<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>>
240-764-5748<br>> Clear writing moves business forward.<br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From:* Ingvild Roald <<a ymailto="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM" href="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM">iroald@HOTMAIL.COM</a>><br>> *To:* <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 2, 2012 7:02 AM<br>> *Subject:* Re: annotation in receptive rather than expressive view point<br>><br>> Hi Charles,<br>><br>> I was answering to the 'translate in your head' problem - which I see as<br>> easier if it is done manually, not just cognitively. I do understand the<br>> differnce between machine translation and manual/ personal translation,<br>> and I do see your point. I hope that someday w will have an automatic<br>> translation from video, but that will be at
least as hard as<br>> voice-recognition systems. For natural langugaes, that is most often a<br>> huge task, because of the many personal and dialectical differences. - I<br>> think that making an avatar signing from what is written in expressive,<br>> to be viewed in receptive mode, is an easier and therefore more<br>> available sort of program. To acheive this, the automatic transformation<br>> between expressive and receptive writing would be a step. But this needs<br>> time, and funding. In teh meantime, we have to struggle along doing this<br>> tranformation by body and mind, and making the dictionary puddles as<br>> well as the litterature puddles and others seadily bigger and better.<br>><br>> Ingvild<br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 03:36:31 -0700<br>> From: <a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM"
href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a><br>> Subject: Re: annotation in receptive rather than expressive view point<br>> To: <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>><br>> Ingvild, I understand, what I am talking about is machine translation,<br>> and the machine has to be taught to read a video, as is, receptive, and<br>> translate that into expressive. The point of machine translation is just<br>> that, having a sufficiently large recognition program to translate a<br>> third-party into expressive. Humans can internalize and write, a machine<br>> has to be taught to do so.<br>><br>> Sometimes watching a video I may get a hand wrong, or a twist in the<br>> wrong direction, and if I write down what I see, I can then correct it<br>> to the opposite. That's my bias, and my early history
with SignWriting,<br>> writing whatever I see, whether on my hands or someone else's.<br>> Charles Butler<br>> <a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>> 240-764-5748<br>> Clear writing moves business forward.<br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From:* Ingvild Roald <<a ymailto="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM" href="mailto:iroald@HOTMAIL.COM">iroald@HOTMAIL.COM</a>><br>> *To:* <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 2, 2012 6:09 AM<br>> *Subject:* Re: annotation in receptive rather than expressive view point<br>><br>> As I see it, the easier way to convert from receptive to expressive for<br>> writing, is to view the video and copy the sign you see by doing
it<br>> yourself. Then you write what you do, the sign as you are making it from<br>> viewing the video. That is, do the translation /transistion manually<br>> rather than 'in your head'.<br>><br>> All the best,<br>><br>> Ingvild<br>><br>> > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:02:50 +0200<br>> > From: <a ymailto="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM" href="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM">oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM</a><br>> > Subject: annotation in receptive rather than expressive view point<br>> > To: <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> ><br>> > Hi Charles,<br>> ><br>> > thanks for your answer.<br>> ><br>> > > Oscar, as you have an assistant annotating video tapes, trying to<br>> > > translate in your head to
an expressive point of view may be driving<br>> > > you crazy.<br>> ><br>> > Yes, I have been thinking about that too. And it would be preferable to<br>> > do annotation from the receptive view point. However, I need the<br>> > transcriptions in an expressive view point in order to match all the<br>> > other entries in SignPuddle (as I use them to initialise my system). The<br>> > manual annotations are intended to serve as evaluation of the<br>> > initialized system, thus they need to match.<br>> ><br>> > If there was an automatic (mathematical) way of converting receptive<br>> > into expressive view points, then we could do the "easier" annotation.<br>> > But I learnt from Steve Slevinski, that this has not been implemented<br>> > and to me it doesn't seem trivial to implement it.<br>>
><br>> > Or does anybody think differently?<br>> ><br>> > Regards, Oscar.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > Am 28.09.2012 13:51, schrieb Charles Butler:<br>> > > Oscar, as you have an assistant annotating video tapes, trying to<br>> > > translate in your head to an expressive point of view may be<br>> driving you<br>> > > crazy. One project in Belo Horizonte is using receptive SignWriting<br>> > > specifically when annotating video tapes so that you see parallel<br>> > > movements, not mirror movements when you look at them side by side. You<br>> > > write what you see on the videotape, not reverse it to your own hands.<br>> > ><br>> > > What this means is that the videotaped person's left hand is on your<br>> > > right, and the videotaped person's right
hand is on your left. You have<br>> > > to remember that you are writing another person's hands, not your own,<br>> > > so when you look in a dictionary like Delegs or any of the current<br>> > > SignPuddles, you will not find what you see on a videotape, but its<br>> > > expressive equivalent.<br>> > > Charles Butler<br>> > > <a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>> > > 240-764-5748<br>> > > Clear writing moves business forward.<br>> > ><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > > *From:* Charles Butler <<a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>><br>> > > *To:* <a
ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 28, 2012 7:29 AM<br>> > > *Subject:* Re: help with signwriting<br>> > ><br>> > > Oscar,<br>> > ><br>> > > Reply, in the first sign, you are using a "both hands" arrow when the<br>> > > hands are moving separately. If you are bringing the hands back toward<br>> > > yourself, you need two arrows toward yourself, put them next to each<br>> > > hand rather than in the middle. This is a common mistake as I'd be able<br>> > > to read it, but the hands are not moving in a common path. This is a<br>> > > common mistake, a single arrow is only used when both hands are<br>> actually<br>> > > together.<br>>
> ><br>> > > In the second sign, your left hand is pointed downward, but you are<br>> > > using a right hand arrow moving twice. Use a left hand arrow or a right<br>> > > hand, not a mix. You could move your right hand in this fashion, but<br>> > > your hand would be twisted outward rather awkwardly, unlikely that this<br>> > > is what you mean.<br>> > > Charles Butler<br>> > > <a ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br>> > > 240-764-5748<br>> > > Clear writing moves business forward.<br>> > ><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > > *From:* Oscar Koller <<a ymailto="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM"
href="mailto:oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM">oscar.koller@GMAIL.COM</a>><br>> > > *To:* <a ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br>> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 28, 2012 6:06 AM<br>> > > *Subject:* help with signwriting<br>> > ><br>> > > Hello everybody,<br>> > ><br>> > > I added following appended 4 entries to the German Sign Puddle. The<br>> > > editors noted in each case that the writing is not correct. Could<br>> > > anybody explain to me, what should be changed?<br>> > ><br>> > > Thanks<br>> > > Oscar.<br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> >
><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> ><br>><br>><br>><br>><br><br><br><br> </div> </div> </div></body></html>