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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='tab-interval:.5in'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>First, as Maria and Valerie says, the open sign puddles cannot be used for any kind of detailed statistical study as they stand.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Some of the puddles could probably be used to check hunches, or look for certain exceptions, but very carefully.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I believe there are ways to download the name of the person who entered the data, so that it might be possible to select just those persons whom you had information about.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Second, adding a field for morphology would never mean that that field was required.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>If you look at any sign puddle entry now, I am sure you can see fields that are not used. So Stefan and Charles could go ahead and write what THEY want to write.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The primary benefit of such a field is for researchers and lexicographers.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>One benefit of having it in the general sign puddle is to keep research puddles similar to open sign puddles, so that Steve doesn’t have to juggle two different versions, and so that someone who was hired to work on a research puddle because of their experience with the open puddles would already be familiar with the fields.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>In other words, the field does no harm to the open puddles, some writers might like to use some of its possibilities, and it would be very valuable to researchers.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Sign language morphology is important because different kinds of signs behave different phonologically. To take a simple example, if you sorted all the signs in a puddle by whether or not they used the R or W handshape, you should find that most of these signs are fingerspelling.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>If you have a field that you can mark off “fingerspelling<span class=GramE>”<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>then</span> you can ignore all the fingerspelling and focus on the unusual signs that are not fingerspelling and have those handshapes and ask why they are happening.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Rachel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <b>On Behalf <span class=GramE>Of</span> </b>Valerie Sutton<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Design for SignPuddle 3: parts-of-speech and morphology of sign language<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>SignWriting List<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>December 12, 2013<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Hello Maria and Steve -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Thank you for this discussion, and Maria, please excuse my delay in working with you - I look forward to more contact soon ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Regarding the sources of writing in the public SignPuddles, it is important to realize that SignPuddle Online, the part that is free and open to the general public, was never meant to be a database that is closed to the public and therefore controlled, with all elements known …Beginners are welcome to start writing something in SignPuddle Online, as a training experience, not because they want to be tracked and a part of any project, but just to learn some SignWriting symbols - some users have never even seen SignWriting before and are just “playing” with the software… and learning the symbols by experimenting with writing for the first time, is a wonderful experience and therefore too valuable for us to deny anyone. It would actually be detrimental to SignWriting to take away the feeling that a beginner can start to learn to write online for free and enjoy looking at other’s writings too…<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>So the public part of SignPuddle Online should not be compared to a controlled database…I want SignPuddle Online to be friendly for the general public and I enjoy conversing with people about how they wrote signs and the many issues that arise when learning how to write…Think how valuable it is here on the SignWriting List to be able to write something in SignPuddle Online and be able to direct people to see the sign there, and to then discuss it. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Now, we DO have controlled SignPuddles, called Private WebPuddles, where only some writers are allowed to contribute writing, but the general public is always welcome to view and read and even copy what is in the Private WebPuddle…but only certain people are allowed to contribute writing to those databases. Those databases would be wonderful to study, because we know who the writers are...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>So, Steve, if you want to build in more fields for tracking different people, under Source we could have:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>source of sign language, such as “signed by…”<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>source of spoken language text such as “New Living Translation NLT”<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>source of sign language author, such as “composed directly in ASL and written in SignWriting by ___”<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>source of translator from spoken language to sign language, such as “translated from ___ to ___ by___"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>source of transcriptionist from video, such as “transcribed from the video_____, and written in SignWriting by___”<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>source of the SignWriting copyist, who copies signs without knowing the signs…etc…<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>or maybe just a few generic fields more under Source will give us more opportunity to record multiple sources, or maybe a pull-down menu for more fields when needed -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Regarding my nephews and their childhood friend as the source of the Spanish Sign Language Literature puddle - We never expected, when I asked my nephews to copy old Spanish Sign Language documents from SignWriter DOS and from old printed materials, to be considered the”source of the sign language itself”…smile…at the time of the SignWriting Document Preservation Project in 2009 and later, which you can read about online: <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/literature/preservation/">http://www.signwriting.org/literature/preservation/</a> … I asked three boys to do the copy work symbol by symbol, into SignPuddle - at the time I needed their names in the Source area so I could see which boy had done the work, but then over time I never got back to putting in the correct sources for the actual sign language documents - Most of them are the Parkhursts but there are some that are an exception - so that is an example of why we cannot count on the public SignPuddles Online to be good sources for research - we would need a team of people to create clean databases - which could be done with funding, but if we had the funding, I would move the data to a Private WebPuddle open to visitors to read and enjoy...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>So let me suggest, if you want to have a good Symbol Frequency Search, Maria, I would suggest studying Nancy Romero’s private web puddles - there are two of them:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>ASL BIBLE Dictionary<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><a href="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=28">http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=28</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>ASL BIBLE Books (English to ASL Translations based on the NLT, by Nancy Romero)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><a href="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=151">http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=151</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>and then there is:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>ASL BIBLE Books (Deaf Missions Videos transcribed by Shores Deaf Church)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><a href="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=152">http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=152</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>These are private databases with only a few writers - you can still do the Symbol Frequency searching on these databases…<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Those are some of my thoughts ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Thanks everyone -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Val ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>———<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>On Dec 12, 2013, at 9:35 AM, Stephen E Slevinski Jr <<a href="mailto:slevin@SIGNPUDDLE.NET">slevin@SIGNPUDDLE.NET</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>On 12/12/13, 10:17 AM, maria galea wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Could I just point out an issue that has come up recently when investigating SignPuddles and using them as a tool to extract information about the writing system for different sign languages..<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>You see, some reviewers have been very</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> critical about the symbol frequency count - not in itself naturally, but with the lack of information it provides about the inputters (writers), their expertise and even the lack of having an exact figure of how many people have written in a given Puddle. </span><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><br>This is a fair criticism.<br><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Without such information not much can be concluded from the results, since you would need exact figures of how many writers have inputted into a given Puddle, dates of when they inputted, and some information about their level of skill, whether they are native signers or otherwise.. </span><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Some of this is available.<br><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>it would be a pity not to include such information (if it is possible) for the sake of future research.</span><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>This would require tracking additional information.<br><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Just to give an example, say you would like to investigate the writing system of the Spanish Literature Puddle (for instance you are investigating the symbols/glyphs used for Spanish sign language) - without information about the number of writers, whether they are native signers or hearing students, and dates of when the writing was created - there is not much you can conclude about the writing system of Spanish sign language (because if if it was written by one person this would be much more different than if it were written by say 15 people)...do you see my point?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><br>From the raw user data, I can pull this list.<br>Anonymous: 67<br>AndrewSutton: 16<br>DavidCorreia: 14<br>msutton: 346<br>sutton: 12<br><br>However, the user who entered the data isn't the same as the original writer.<br><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]><br style='mso-special-character:line-break'><![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>I have no idea if such information can somehow be stored, as i have no expertise with programming at all; i can also see the problem with data-protection acts (but hey- what happened with the boom of social-networks such as Facebook!) but it would be great to somehow store such information for future research...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>This would be an interesting and valuable addition to the SignPuddle project, but not the core focus. <br><br>I have a few ideas that will answer some of you questions, but it will not answer them all.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Thanks Maria for your input.<br><br>Regards,<br>-Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>________________________________________________ <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p>SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION <o:p></o:p></p><p>Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p>SignWriting List Archives & Home Page <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages <a href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a> <o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>________________________________________________ <o:p></o:p></span></p><p>SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION <o:p></o:p></p><p>Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu"><span class=SpellE>sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p><p>SignWriting List Archives & Home Page <a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist">http://<span class=SpellE>www.signwriting.org</span>/forums/<span class=SpellE>swlist</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p><p>Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages <a href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1">http://<span class=SpellE>listserv.valenciacollege.edu</span>/<span class=SpellE>cgi</span>-bin/<span class=SpellE>wa?SUBED1</span>=<span class=SpellE>SW-L&A</span>=1</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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