<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.E-MailFormatvorlage19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:595.3pt 841.9pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 2.0cm 70.85pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:140460612;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:1480360256 67567633 67567641 67567643 67567631 67567641 67567643 67567631 67567641 67567643;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-text:"%1\)";
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=DE link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Erika, James, Val and
friends... <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you Erika for your
comment. I am afraid that my English is not good enough to describe what I have
on my mind and I appreciate your message as a comment about your first-hand
experience in my classes over the years...;-)) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Well James, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1)<font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>It is as Erika explains it perfectly. You honestly will not assume
that I do not know the difference between Signed German and DGS (German Sign
Language) – and as I started with my privous message: The first step is
to assure that teacher and student and students among each other can
communicate. Within a group of deaf people this communication is done in
SignLanguage ( not Signed German). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>At the end of this
learning adventure any student should be able to switch between the two systems
Signlanguage and Spoken Language. Some of my students develop a high motivation
to work hard to improve their articulation – others do no like to speak. Nevertheless
all of them are exspected to become competent in both Languages (Sign Language
and Spoken Language) This is </span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>definitely not only a </span></font><span
lang=EN-GB>BI-MODEL methodology – as you call it but a bilingual
approach. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>“Use it if you must; but recognize it for what
it is.” Hm – in between the lines I can see the frown on your
face. Signed German ... you never would use that. Am I right? – smile -
It is as Erika might be able to explain much better. The step in between the
start and the end of our learning procedure is to support deaf students with
Signed German. Experience has shown that the students achieve bilingual
competence so much faster if they get the chance to read and “translate”
written documents that show signs written in the grammar of Spoken German. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Next step will be to demonstrate the contrast between
Signlanguage and Spoken Language. They understand much better and in the end it
is a pure bilingual approach and the students translate from one system inot
the other in both directions. . <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks to our delegs-editor – the most effective
tool for building the bridge between Spoken Language and Signlanguage - you
can do this back and forth thing so easily. It is your job to write any
document within seconds in whatever style you want to. If you want to create
SignLanguage document – just write the words that pick the signs from the
dictionary – edit the signs to appropriate DGS oder ASL and hide the
words afterwards. Same thing with Signed German documents. ...I am so gratefull
that it has become so easy to offer lots and lots and lots of documents every
day with this brilliant DELEGS – software. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><span
lang=EN-GB>Hi James – when I referr to name-signs in SignWriting as
pictograms – I cannot see any negative aspect in this. My experiments in
this field show clearly that you and me and other experienced scribes look at
these arrangements of single symbols which we take out of the big ISWA –box
with other eyes. And we read the given signs in a analytic way. We understand
the meaning of the single symbols. Many well written signs seem to become a “Gute
Gestalt” and the deaf child and some beginners who start to read
SignWriting do not analyze and even do not know ( and do not have to) about all
the decisions the scribe has made while he choose to write the sign in this
way. It is amazing – and funny at the same time – to see that a
well known sign – ( a sign that is identified within part of a second)
can be changed (in the sense of misspelled) and the deaf child would not
hesitate to “read” it the same way as before... I did some private
research on this and it is really tremendously interesting. Hi Erica - ....
smile!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>“...by
that logic, showing the kid his written German name is also using a pictogram”
– yes of course – as long as the child has no idea about any method
to interpret the graphems in any way as options how to encourage somebody to
speak what is written – and that is of course a long journey especially
for deaf kids. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>“-- a
jumble of otherwise pointless letters whose order must be memorized.” In
order to change this I invented this new notation system for sound-based
symbols. “Mundbildschrift” = “Woehrmanns Speech-Writing”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>This exactly is
the basis why I invented my “Speech-Writing –System” ... but
this is a whole other story and people get confused because of two different
systems - a VISUALLY PHONETIC system (as used in my mouthgestures “Mundbilder”
in Signwriting) and an aural based phonetic code in this case “Mundbildschrift”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><span
lang=EN-GB>“German employs an aural based phonetic code..” ..ha...yes
.... well there are a lot of problems beause this matching of letters and sounds
does not work in German... too many exceptions... This causes problems in the context
of lipreading, It is a severe fault to tell a hearing child – just write what
you hear – it does not work. You better should say look at the spelling of
this German word (just as a string of letters) and listen to me. You hear the way
we pronounce this word. Just accept that and obey the spelling. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>From my point of view deaf students expand their vocabulary
of Spoken German much better if they get the chance to associate with given words
some kind of tongue, mouth, lip –movement – feedback. How does it feel
if you pronounce the word Reagenzglas, Universalindikator, Koordinatenkreuz, Baden-Württemberg.
A combination of reading the word, looking at the appropriate sign in SignWriting
along with the mouth-gestures as you find them constantly in the German SignPuddle
allows deaf students to speed up with the aqcuisition of new terms. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Deaf students can read SignWriting documents at high speed
even if they do now know about the meaning of the (isolated) symbols. I am still
in the beginning to understand this and to accept this and to arrange experiments
in order to find more about that. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>When Erika did her research project in my classes it has
been almost like a mystery to both of us that deaf students move their lips or read
a sign in GebaerdenSchrift with Mundbilder – and nevertheless do not
associate these mouth movements with German words as we do. We referr in this
case to some association of the spoken word – while a deaf child might
perform this part of the sign just as a movement part of the lips not knowing
that the lipreading would lead to a quick identification of the German word. ...
There is probably still lots of room for research – right Erika? You are
very welcome to visit us again any time. You want me ask if you can rent the
appartement again? Your research and the way you expalin these questions to me
are a very welcome source for greater attention. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hope this helps – sorry for my English ;-(<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>All best Stefan <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Von:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSE</span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>RV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU]
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Im Auftrag von </span></b>Erika
Hoffmann-Dilloway<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Gesendet:</span></b> Sonntag, 22. Dezember
2013 23:18<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>An:</span></b>
SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Betreff:</span></b> Re: Teaching Signwriting
to deaf children in Tunisia A PROPOSAL FOR ALL</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi James - Stefan can of course speak for himself, but since I'm at the
computer I'll just briefly note from my observations in his class he does use
both German Sign Language and Signed German - and clearly treats them as
different codes (i.e., SG is framed as German in a different modality not as a
sign language). I think he was focusing on his use of Signed German in his
earlier message to highlight the ways in which he thinks SW can be useful for
teaching a spoken language. I'd never been comfortable with the use of a signed
version of a spoken language in other educational settings I've observed, but
the way that Stefan distinguishes it from German Sign Language and uses each to
different ends - or as a means to compare grammatical structures between the
two codes- was really interesting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Stefan, please correct me if I'm misframing anything you do.<br>
Best,<br>
Erika<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 5:08 PM, James Shepard-Kegl <<a
href="mailto:kegl@maine.rr.com" target="_blank">kegl@maine.rr.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Stefan,<br>
<br>
I think you and I are going to have to respectfully disagree.<br>
<br>
I would point out some issues for all:<br>
<br>
1) The methodology that Stefan has described is not a BILINGUAL approach;
rather, it is a BI-MODEL methodology. Signed German is not a language
different from German; it is a manual form of German. Use it if you must;
but recognize it for what it is.<br>
<br>
2) Referring to name-signs in SignWriting as pictograms may be
appropriate for a Deaf child on his or her first day of school, but know this:
by that logic, showing the kid his written German name is also using a
pictogram.<br>
<br>
3) It truly is more difficult to write a sign than to recognize one.
But, that is true of written English and German, too. Both
othorgraphic systems are phonetic systems: German employs an aural based
phonetic code; SignWriting is, if you will, a VISUALLY PHONETIC system.
Most hearing children use a whole word approach when learning to read,
but understand that the code itself is based on sounds that are put together to
form words. AND HERE IS MY POINT: To Deaf chidren, a written German
word is a pictogram -- a jumble of otherwise pointless letters whose order must
be memorized. But, when shown how SignWriting works, these children can
immediately appreciate the concept that writing systems use a code. In
the case of SignWriting, that code is merely symbols for handshapes, movement
and direction, contact, location, etc. Only when a Deaf child recognizes
this, can he or she solve the mystery of how hearing people can so consistently
spell words in German so accurately<br>
. You see, as a hearing person I can quickly relate to the concept
that SignWriting is a visually phonetic code. First, I am not blind, so I
can see that it is. Second, I am already comfortable with the notion of
an aurally phonetic writing system. Alas, the Deaf child -- or the
profoundly deaf child, anyway -- may never actually know what a sound is, just
like chldren born totally blind cannot imagine colors. But with
SignWriting, the Deaf child might grasp the idea of a sound based writing code
by analogy.<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'><br>
<span class=hoenzb>-- James</span></span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
________________________________________________<br>
<br>
<br>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION<br>
<br>
Valerie Sutton<br>
SignWriting List moderator<br>
<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a><br>
<br>
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:<br>
<a href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a><br>
<br>
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page<br>
<a href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist" target="_blank">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a><br>
<br>
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages<br>
<a href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1"
target="_blank">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway<br>
Assistant Professor of Anthropology<br>
Oberlin College <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>________________________________________________ <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>SIGNWRITING
LIST INFORMATION <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Valerie
Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton@signwriting.org <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Post
Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>SignWriting
List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Join,
Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
________________________________________________
<p>
<p>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
<p>
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton@signwriting.org
<p>
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu
<p>
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
<p>
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1