<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>In the dictionary output I put in I did not sort by ASL for now, that was an input AFTER the ordering of the dictionary. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>I am using the Search feature in the SignPuddle and going through every LIBRAS sign I have access to and putting in a Spelling so that the computer can sort them. After that has happened and I go back and search by a hand shape, I can then pull into a separate file representative spellings and reduce them to two or three minimal pairs. I don't use the entire spelling
from one sign to the next, just what differentiates the next sign in the dictionary. So my current dictionary (the one used in the Symposium) does not have the full spell-out as the actual LIBRAS SignPuddle entry has. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>After putting in the LIBRAS signs I wanted, I then added an English column and an ASL column, realizing that between two spoken languages and two signed languages there may be some signs that seem lexically identical but have different usages. This will always be a work in progress. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">Your query about directional signs, Andre, would have signs coming one after another if one is using the same hand shape simply changing the orientation of the movement. They are related, but just like the English order "a, about, across, adamant, aegis, after, agronomy, aha, ail, ajar" has completely unrelated terms following one another in a dictionary, my dictionary is pre-supposing that one does not know the sign language at all, one only knows the writing system and is trying to look up a sign that one is coming across for the first time. </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0,
0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">If you only see the sign, and don't know it's context, looking at a sign sorted by grammar doesn't help you. If you don't know the sign is for an animal, then looking at "giraffe" doesn't help you, but seeing a neck and a C hand shape lets you look it up. </div><div></div><div> </div><div>Charles Butler<br>chazzer3332000@yahoo.com<br>240-764-5748<br>Clear writing moves business forward.</div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jonathan Duncan <duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, August 14, 2014 6:10 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv2653125037"><div>
Hello Andre,<br clear="none">
Wouldn't each directional sign entry be sorted one after another
according to the rotation in a specific order of rotation Charles is
describing? Can you give us a short example of what you mean?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Jonathan<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv2653125037moz-cite-prefix">On 8/13/2014 10:47 PM, André L wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div dir="ltr">Hello,<br clear="none">
sorting by the rotation of the hand may not be effective in LSQ
because of directional signs. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
André Lemyre<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div>
<hr id="yiv2653125037stopSpelling">Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:05:50 -0400<br clear="none">
From: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv2653125037moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA" target="_blank" href="mailto:duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA">duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA</a><br clear="none">
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries<br clear="none">
To: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv2653125037moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Hi Charles,<br clear="none">
I watched your talk again today. I realized that what I
call "Sign Sequence" you call "Sign Spelling". I guess it is
"SignSpelling Sequence". So I didn't understand that the
first time. So now after this more attentive listening to
your talk, I see that you definitely are using SignSpelling
Sequence for all your entries and that you are doing them
manually the same way Val suggested in the SignSpelling
Guidelines. <br clear="none">
Am I correct in my understanding that which symbols come
first in the sorted list is different from the way SignPuddle
is sorting? <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Your sorting would be sorted by the<br clear="none">
1. First by symbol in the sign sequence's basegroup of the
first hand in the SignSpelling Sequence<br clear="none">
2. What figure (See the individual chapters)? <b> I need more
explanation about this one.</b><br clear="none">
3. The for each basegroup sort by fill<br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:1.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
4. In each fill sorting, sort by rotation <b>( but not
distinguishing between right and left hands. <br clear="none">
I see you number both from 1 to 8 in instead of numbering
them all from 1 to 16)</b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:2.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
5. Location symbol. comes after hand symbol when comparing.<br clear="none">
From first to last <br clear="none">
No Body - hand to hand, head, body <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
5.1 Location sorting on hand <b>contact order doesn't seem to
be defined yet</b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
5.2 Head location sorting<br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:3.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
5.3 Body body <br clear="none">
Indicate the location of the body, placing the graphic in the
left lane, the middle lane, or <br clear="none">
right lane. - <b>Need this explained I'm not understanding.</b><br clear="none">
<b>Needs to have numbering for which comes first for body
location</b><b><br clear="none">
</b><img alt="" src="cid:4.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<div class="yiv2653125037ecxmoz-cite-prefix"> <img alt="" src="cid:5.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
6 - What is contact? No order, any can come first.<br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:6.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
7.7 - Finger bends (ie no order)?No order, any can come
first.<br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:7.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
8 - Movement? Vertical, then Horizontal, then Arc - up /
down, up / abaxo + rotation, then up / down bow <br clear="none">
after / below + arc rotation, face bow, face bow + rotation<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:8.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:9.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:10.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:11.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b>Need to define which come first within the vertical, and
which come first within the horizontal, etc.</b><b> Or
just current default currently in ISWA2010<br clear="none">
</b><b>Need to define movement symbols in other planes, etc.<br clear="none">
</b><b> </b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
9 Timing. <b>Which comes first?</b><br clear="none">
<img alt="" src="cid:12.4210464715@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
10 Faces and posture.<br clear="none">
<b>Not sure about this one, would like more explanation.</b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Also you need to output a dictionary that has, <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
hand <br clear="none">
spelling <br clear="none">
sign <br clear="none">
Portuguese <br clear="none">
ASL <br clear="none">
english <br clear="none">
Quote<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Do you currently have any way of keeping all this
information in Sign Puddle?<br clear="none">
SignWriter Studio can do <br clear="none">
spelling<br clear="none">
sign-LIBRAS<br clear="none">
Portuguese<br clear="none">
English<br clear="none">
Source<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I was hoping to add a second SignLanguage to do a dictionary
with two sign languages but I haven't programmed that yet.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I am still working on finalizing the output for the
dictionary. So I am looking for your input whether you use
it or not.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Please fill me in where I am lacking and correct me where I
am wrong.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Regards,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Jonathan<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 8/12/2014 4:47 PM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote> Hi Charles,<br clear="none">
I enjoyed your symposium <b>“Ordering Signs in Dictionaries” <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv2653125037ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0010.html">http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0010.htmlgro</a><br clear="none">
</b> I was wondering if Steve and Val had been able to
find you a solution. Val mentioned that she thought that
Steve would have an easy way for you to do your sorting.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I would like to implement a sorting algorithm for SignWriter
Studio as I haven't implemented any yet and I am starting to
produce a Honduran Sign Language dictionary. <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I understood how you are doing the ordering comparing hand
shapes, comparing rotations, comparing facings, comparing
facial areas, etc. I like it very much.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
A couple things I wanted to ask.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
For your algorithm to work properly does the sign sequence
of a sign need to be filled out? I am getting the
impression that your sorting could sort dictionaries without
the sign sequence, is this assumption correct? Or would it
sort signs according to the symbols in sign sequence? It
doesn't seem to take into account the order of the symbols
in the sign sequence, is this correct?<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Also do you have another document comparing the other
symbols like movement symbols, etc? If so could you send it
to me? <br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-transform: none; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; letter-spacing: normal; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; word-spacing: 0px; white-space: normal; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></span><b></b>
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