<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div><span>This is exactly what I am looking at Adam. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>But shouldn't NO contact come before contact. There is no contact so shouldn't NOT come before some, just like </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>A-B
comes before</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>A-B-C with C being contact? </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>There is nothing there, this is the principle I am trying to establish, NO contact at all should come before ANY contact. It's a syllable division after the face that presumes something. If there is no contact, there is no contact, so why should not NO contact come before SOME contact. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>If I'm looking for something in a normal English dictionary I don't look for </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>I'm looking for actual thinking, not just a string of numbers. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica,
sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>ABD before</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>ABC</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>I'm I'm looking up something, and I stop and think, I have that index finger, it's up near my face, so that should be the first thing I see, up near face with no contact at all. It's not contacting, so it is NULL, it is not CONTACT as first, it is NOTHING as first. </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;
background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>Yes, I am asking for a change in the Handshape-Location-Movement order for times when there is NO contact to be first. Location is location, but NO contact should not be last, it doesn't' seem logical to me. Having ALL touches before NO touch at all doesn't seem to make any sense. I break the syllable after the location. What is happening. It's a syllable break, ask the question WHAT IS HAPPENING? Is there facial contact, yes or no, NO comes first, not last. There actually is a state of touch called "not touching" before CONTACT - its NOT touching. That is a physical state of NOT touching and it comes before the TOUCH. It's not simply "*" before "movement" it's NOT TOUCH, then TOUCH, then movement. </span></div><div
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>I'm asking for syllabification in the spelling to take into account when a parameter is the NULL state. Not Touching is a real state, it is not simply "move to the next parameter which is movement". So touching is not a "kind of movement" it is a state and when nothing is there, that is an actual placeholder. </span></div><div></div><div> </div><div>Charles Butler<br>chazzer3332000@yahoo.com<br>240-764-5748<br>Clear writing moves business forward.</div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Adam Frost <icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, September 8, 2014 11:52 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Examples of Syllable 4: Detailed Sorting<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv9910379537"><div>So if I am reading this right, you are comparing two signs of DEAF. One with contact and one without. It seems that you are writing the SignSpelling Sequence following the basic Handshape-Location-Movement order. Ok. So that would mean that you would have DEAF with contact ordered as:<div><br clear="none"></div><div><img alt="01-01-001-01-02-02"
src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/symbol.php?sss=01-01-001-01-02-02&color=000000"><img alt="04-01-002-01-01-07" src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/symbol.php?sss=04-01-002-01-01-07&color=000000"><img alt="02-01-001-01-01-01" src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/symbol.php?sss=02-01-001-01-01-01&color=000000"><img alt="02-03-001-01-01-04" src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/symbol.php?sss=02-03-001-01-01-04&color=000000"><img alt="04-01-002-01-01-05" src="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/symbol.php?sss=04-01-002-01-01-05&color=000000"><img id="yiv9910379537B63F6F2B-A8DD-42A3-82CC-05FC4E2FBD43" alt="02-01-001-01-01-01" height="11" width="10" src="cid:1.116209772@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>And DEAF without as:</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><img id="yiv99103795377AEA72A5-B2B0-41DD-A360-5096DA661417" alt="01-01-001-01-02-02" height="30" width="21"
src="cid:2.116209772@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><img id="yiv99103795375E4FAA9A-DCD8-4E24-82EA-8BB50C661A29" alt="04-01-002-01-01-07" height="35" width="36" src="cid:3.116209772@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><img id="yiv991037953754C208F8-6654-462E-9BEB-6A30727D38E7" alt="02-03-001-01-01-04" height="14" width="13" src="cid:4.116209772@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><img id="yiv9910379537BED8BE8B-5509-4F86-9B67-BD401F0E848C" alt="04-01-002-01-01-05" height="35" width="36" src="cid:5.116209772@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Assuming that you are using the Symbol Sequence that is inherit with the ISWA 2010, then DEAF with contact would come first before DEAF without contact because the first contact star in DEAF with contact comes before the arrow moment in DEAF without contact.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>But I’m still not seeing what you are referring to. What exactly are you trying to do?</div><div><br
clear="none"></div><div>Adam</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><div><div>On Sep 8, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Charles Butler <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM">chazzer3332000@YAHOO.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none" class="yiv9910379537Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div><span>Hi Adam and Jonathan.</span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>What Jonathan and I are running up against is Sign-Symbol-Sequence by Syllable, so, for example with a sign like Deaf (with
face contact) and Deaf (without face contact), I put the first and second positions of the face when there are no contacts but the hand is near the space BEFORE the writing where there is actual contact on the head. The only way to order them in a dictionary (for me) is to have distinct syllables and spellings within syllables. So that first-syllable INDEX
HAND-NEAR EAR ARC-(second syllable)-NEAR MOUTH ARC comes before (first syllable) HAND-EAR ARC-CONTACT-(second syllable)EAR-MOUTH-CONTACT. </span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>We are trying to order positions on the Head in relation to contacts with the Head in syllables. Trying to get a fixed order of relation to one part of a syllable to the next part. </span></div><div></div><div> </div><div>Charles Butler<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:chazzer3332000@yahoo.com">chazzer3332000@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none">240-764-5748<br clear="none">Clear writing moves business
forward.</div><div><br clear="none"></div> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Adam Frost <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>><br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a> <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, September 8, 2014 9:58 AM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Examples of
Syllable 4: Detailed Sorting<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv9910379537y_msg_container"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv9910379537"><div>I’m not sure what you mean by 1-3. Do you mean the location on the hand? And what do you mean by Top-Down for the Face?<div><br clear="none"></div><div>As for the neck, I found this sign with SignSpelling Sequence.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=9098">http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=9098</a></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>For the shoulder, I found this sign with SignSpelling Sequence.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank"
href="http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=7005">http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=7005</a></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Adam</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv9910379537qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv9910379537yqt2595339752" id="yiv9910379537yqt41187"><div>On Sep 8, 2014, at 5:56 AM, Jonathan Duncan <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA" target="_blank" href="mailto:duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA">duncanjonathan@YAHOO.CA</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none" class="yiv9910379537Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div></div><div class="yiv9910379537yqt2595339752" id="yiv9910379537yqt68091"><div>
Hi,<br clear="none">
Does anybody have any SignSequence examples for<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Syllable 4: Detailed Sorting<br clear="none">
1. Location Dominant Hand<br clear="none">
2. Location Non-Dominant Hand<br clear="none">
4. Face (Top-Down)<br clear="none">
5. Neck<br clear="none">
6. Shoulder<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I´ve looked through the sign spelling sequences for the ASL and only
found examples for<br clear="none">
3. Head<br clear="none">
7. Torso<br clear="none">
8. Hips & Legs<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Thanks,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv9910379537moz-signature">-- <br clear="none">
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><title></title><div><div><div class="yiv9910379537moz-signature">
<div> <img id="yiv9910379537C0835333-81EB-4E96-A3FE-C8D4BED494CF" alt="" height="44" width="200" src="cid:6.116209772@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com"><div>email: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca" target="_blank" href="mailto:duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca">duncanjonathan@yahoo.ca</a><br clear="none">
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