<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:24px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24419" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24420">I can see, with the ISWA that one could have that line as a character in itself, not impossible, just unusual. It would be attached to the other projective orientations as an independent line. </span></div><div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24505"> </div><div class="signature" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24506">Charles Butler chazzer3332000@yahoo.com 240-764-5748 Clear writing moves business forward.</div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24507"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24511" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: bookman old style, new york, times, serif; font-size: 24px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24510"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24509"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24508"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24512"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "rchannon1@VERIZON.NET" <rchannon1@VERIZON.NET><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24514"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24513">Sent:</span></b> Monday, January 15, 2018 9:13 PM<br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24516"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24515">Subject:</span></b> Re: Question on hand orientation<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1516117448385_24517"><br><div id="yiv3661905126"><style>#yiv3661905126 #yiv3661905126 --
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#yiv3661905126 </style><div><div class="yiv3661905126WordSection1"><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Hi Valerie, yes, I think that would be worth knowing, and perhaps it could be adapted in some way, so if you have the time to explain how you write it that would be great! Thanks, Rachel</div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv3661905126yqt9255497658" id="yiv3661905126yqt33657"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Valerie Sutton<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 13, 2018 1:23 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: Question on hand orientation<br clear="none"><b>Importance:</b> Low</div></div></div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">SignWriting List</div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">January 13, 2018</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Hi Rachel -</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Glad you got my last post, and yes, thank you, Charles, for writing the sign for EGG ;-)</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Let me make this clear (big grin ;-) - We pondered this issue for YEARS!</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">For years I went to bed at night worrying about the details of palm facing, until it was hurting everyone's health!</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">And we discussed the in-between palm facings for years on the SignWriting List ...</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">And we DO already have the symbols - so SignWriting has already used these symbols for video transcription for years, when we used to work without computers. Writing SignWriting is wonderful by hand. You have the freedom to move the Horizon Line up and down on the palms in tiny increments. The problem is that computers need finite symbolsets, and SignWriting is remarkable when hand-written because it has infinite numbers of in-between possibilities.</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">So when Steve told me we needed to finalize the symbolset for the ISWA 2008 and then later the ISWA 2010, it was agonizing for me, because there were SO many symbols that were not included in the ISWA.</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">But it was worth it to finalize symbolsets, because that has given us TrueType Fonts and FSW and Unicode and SignPuddle and other important software - and that spreads SignWriting on computers and handheld devices...</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">And sometimes there are other frustrations - for example, if I had organized some symbols better and so forth - but we are where we are with a world standard that is doing remarkably well, and technically you can construct any symbol that is missing, using SignPuddle or SignWriter Studio software...</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">So do you want to know how to write the in-between palm facings? I can produce an instruction page for constructing them if you wish -</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Does anyone else want to know? If so, give me a day - I will produce the document -</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Val ;-)</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">--------</div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">On Jan 13, 2018, at 10:09 AM, <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:rchannon1@VERIZON.NET" target="_blank" href="mailto:rchannon1@VERIZON.NET">rchannon1@VERIZON.NET</a>> <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:rchannon1@VERIZON.NET" target="_blank" href="mailto:rchannon1@VERIZON.NET">rchannon1@VERIZON.NET</a>> wrote:</div></div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Hi Valerie, yes you understood my question exactly, and our posts crossed<span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="">😊</span>. If the symbols are not in the ISWA then I don’t think constructed symbols would help me in our current project, because constructed symbols are generally not easy to translate.</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Every writing and transcription system has its limits, and I completely understand why you decided not to use these diagonal orientations because in ordinary writing they are not required.</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">But I believe signwriting does have another future as a transcription system for signs. And for transcription, it may be worth pondering this issue of three way diagonals. The reason is that in many cases, the easiest hand position is a diagonal position, and if we want to look at how signers naturally place their arms, I think we will hit these three way diagonals often.</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">For now, I will probably just add comments to signs that show this diagonal position.<span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span></div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Thank you for answering me so quickly! And thank you to Charles also!</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Rachel</div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span>SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU"><span style="color:purple;">mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</span></a>]<span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Valerie Sutton<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b><span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, January 13, 2018 12:34 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b><span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank" href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU"><span style="color:purple;">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</span></a><br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b><span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Question on hand orientation</div></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">SignWriting List</div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">January 13, 2018</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Good Saturday, Rachel!</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">And thank you for this question, and for the beautiful SignTyp Database at UCONN.</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">I believe your question is: Can we write the detailed palm facing of fingers projected forward-down-diagonal? In other words, you do not want to write the fingers projecting straight forward, and you do not want to write the fingers projecting straight down. You want an "in-between" palm facing at a "forward-down-diagonal"? Is this correct?</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">SignWriting for Everyday Use does not write those in-between palm facings. We choose either fingers pointing forward or fingers pointing down, and by a knowledge of the language, or possibly other information in the written sign (for example arrows that show a down-diagonal already), the reader knows enough to understand the writing...</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">For video transcription and for detailed research use, we do have some in-between symbols, but I caution you that no one uses them, and frankly most people will not be able to read them. I have trouble reading them, and I invented them - that is funny, isn't it? It is because we never use them... And they are not in the ISWA 2010 - that is the smbolset we are all using right now. They have to be constructed. I can construct them for you if you really feel you need them, but I wonder if you do? You already have the down-diagonal movement arrows which precludes the palm facing information and is a marker in a way...</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">The "in-between" palm facings are conceptually similar to the down-diagonal arrows. They involve hand positions that have an "horizon-line", but the "horizon line is lower or higher than usual, so just like the corresponding down-diagonal arrows, the horizon line moves up or down the palm facing to adjust to hitting the horizon in a different place...which then creates an in-between angle for the palm facing.</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">I will construct some for you and post again -</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Blessings everyone -</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><img id="yiv3661905126_x0035_7F785C8-1A67-49F2-9ED6-25B7CBD5B1C7" border="0" width="26" height="81" style="width:.2708in;min-height:.8472in;" src="cid:ca779f7c-8fcf-b37e-79c6-4d93ffef5a85@yahoo.com" data-id="3f79935e-f971-6e8b-ff4f-18d558be02d2"></div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Val ;-)</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">-----------------------------------------</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">On Jan 12, 2018, at 5:23 PM,<span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:rchannon1@VERIZON.NET" target="_blank" href="mailto:rchannon1@VERIZON.NET"><span style="color:purple;">rchannon1@VERIZON.NET</span></a><span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</div></div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Hi everyone, I have a sign in our SignTyp project that shows the hands tilted down, backs up with fingers lower than the heel of the palm. Here is the screengrab from the video:</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><img id="yiv3661905126_x0036_F5246C3-540F-4380-BEC0-4D99BDE852E1" border="0" width="351" height="229" style="width:3.6597in;min-height:2.3888in;" src="cid:0a7989eb-47e4-4f0b-fcf7-d5c3ebd08111@yahoo.com" yahoo_partid="3" data-id="ffebd98a-8e6c-e9e0-b126-cb3c32270746"></div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">How would you write this orientation to show that the fingers are lower than the wrist? For this sign EGG, it means that the uncooked eggs are spreading out, falling down and kind of splattering all over. If the hands were straight out, I don’t think it would have the same meaning, so I want to have the orientation show that if possible.</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Thank you!</div></div></div><div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">Rachel<span class="yiv3661905126apple-converted-space"> </span></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;">________________________________________________</span></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal"> </div></div><div class="yiv3661905126MsoNormal">________________________________________________ </div><div>SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION </div><div>Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a> </div><div>Post Messages to the SignWriting List: <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu">sw-l@listserv.valenciacollege.edu</a> </div><div>SignWriting List Archives & Home Page <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist">http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist</a> </div><div>Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1">http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1</a> </div></div></div></div><div>
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