<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">SignWriting List<div>May 4, 2020</div><div><br></div><div>Hi Jonathan, Bill, Charles, Steve, Adam, the Brazilian handshape team and SW list members -</div><div><br></div><div>What an interesting discussion. Thank you for sharing ideas. And new software that would assist in creating new handshapes might happen someday. That would be a future solution perhaps except I guess Unicode needs stable standards - it starts getting so complex. Or as you mentioned some kind of an interchangeable font system would be nice too - but all this is down the road a bit. </div><div><br></div><div>Let me tell you my thinking for one moment. Developing the ISWA 2008 and 2010 symbol sets was a huge job for me. I sat for years designing each handshape in its many rotations dot by dot, saving them as pngs. Then Adam Frost creates the SVG of the symbols and Steve worked on a bunch of other formats and the auto rotations and flops.  All of these symbols are stored in downloadable packages at movementwriting.org/symbol bank. </div><div><br></div><div>So it was not just a large job for me but also for Adam and Steve and the Unicode committee and of course programmers like yourself Jonathan, and we have all invested our love and attention  to try to make the ISWA work for over 40 countries and sign languages<br><br>Considering how many thousands of people are using the 2010, I think it has done very well. I know there is nothing perfect about it. I worried a lot during the development of it because we all knew there can always be new handshapes needed. We all new there will always be new requests for handshapes with tiny differences. </div><div><br></div><div>So here is what I suggest:  First I need to really read the proposal to see if I feel we cannot write Brazilian signs without the newly proposed hand symbols. Second I need to then write to you all here on the SW List to tell you my findings. If we can determine that 10 or 12 symbols are truly needed then we can discuss the idea of a way to replace other unused symbols with the new ones. That will be up to Steve since Steve encoded the 2010 and works with the Unicode committee. </div><div><br></div><div>Once decisions are made then I have to schedule my time to work on the project. I am semi retired and I do not want to work long hours but I’m game to do symbol editing work in the Fall if need be - maybe in September.</div><div><br></div><div>At the moment we are all trying to finish other projects that are already started so that is why I cannot work on it until September. </div><div><br></div><div>No worries. If it is good for the world we will make it work somehow. </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for the nice presentation. And thanks for the ongoing discussion 😊</div><div><br></div><div>Stay well and safe everyone!! Val 😃</div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On May 4, 2020, at 8:39 AM, Bill Reese <wreese01@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Jonathan,<br>I don't think, at this point, that Steve would be wanting to reinvent the wheel, but perhaps something could be worked out similar to how CAD organizes groups of elements.  In CAD programs, different components like lines, curves, shading can be grouped together and defined as a discrete item called a block.  <br>For example: a stop sign in the US is made from 8 lines in an octagon shape with the word "Stop" in the middle and perhaps a shading for the area within the octagon.  These can be selected, made into a block in the drawing .. perhaps called "stop".   Thereafter, all a drafter would need to do is insert the "stop" block rather than recreate the stop sign each time.   <br>The code for the block starts with a header type of element that includes a link to the first element in the block - say a line - and that one, the line, includes a link to the next element and so on and so forth until a tailing element is reached.   Essentially, all the elements that compose the block are "bookended" by the header and tailing elements, which aren't visible. <br><br>Bill<br><br><div class="reply-new-signature"></div><p>-----------------------------------------</p>From: "Jonathan Duncan" <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU><br>To: SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<br>Cc: <br>Sent: Sunday May 3 2020 2:51:10PM<br>Subject: [SPAM] Re: Proposal to complement the International Alphabet of SignWriting by Valerie Sutton and Adam Frost<br><br>
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    <p>Hi SignWriting list,</p>
    <p>    I want to congratulate Profo Rubens Almeida and team for the
      beautiful work they put into this project.</p>
    <p>Val and Steve,</p>
    <p>    I was thinking that it's great you are working so that they
      can add they other symbols to the ISWA 2020.  But I am also
      thinking that there is what I feel is a shortcoming to the ISWA
      2010, which is easy extensibility to create new handshapes.  I
      believe if the members of SignWriting community who had an issue
      the the thumbs, if they had easier ways of creating new handshapes
      and sharing them it wouldn't of been more enjoyable for them. 
      Also for my hand shape selections, no all symbols look quite the
      way they should in each position as is.  It would've been nice to
      have alternative handshapes that fit more with what they would
      like to choose, where they expect it or show them only the ones in
      ISWA 2010 like they have now.</p>
    <p>    <img src="/index.php/inbox/attachment/filenameOriginal/dgiikaebineilaof.png/filenamefs/INBOX119293674863b0b3c9155732753e8e07639f3b" alt="" data-unique-identifier=""></p>
    <p>I'm not sure which ones were most problematic just right now.</p>
    <p>I think the idea of composing new symbols from the pieces is
      nice.  It would also be backwards compatible with ISWA2010 without
      any problems.  The real issues are really <br>
    </p>
    <p>1- keep the parts of the new symbols together so that they can
      all be moved together.</p>
    <p>2- displaying them in the symbol area to choose to include in a
      sign.</p>
    <p><img src="/index.php/inbox/attachment/filenameOriginal/hbobocpjflbhbpec.png/filenamefs/INBOX1192934e2d1b3e899114b5dfc043fb91e1613e" alt="" data-unique-identifier=""></p>
    <p>In my opinion, a way to do these two things would be more
      beneficial than add a few new symbols every 10 years.  <br>
    </p>
    <p>To do it we would need a way to group symbols together within a
      sign so that they can be moved all together. Maybe creating an
      extension to FSW to tell the program which symbols should be
      treated as one symbol.<br>
    </p>
    <p>A separate piece of data to let the programs know under which
      finger group to display them,  and just display them at the end of
      the existing ones.</p>
    <p>Have a way to distinguish the created symbols, possibly by a hash
      of the codes of the symbols making it up plus its rotation and
      palm facing.<br>
    </p>
    <p>I think it would be a better long term solution than changing
      symbols out from ISWA2010 to ISWA2020.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>If you decide to replace some of the symbols in the new ISWA2020
      and create FSW.  How will people know not to load it in programs
      that still have ISWA2010?   They signs would become unreadable in
      those programs as they would have the old symbols.  Of course this
      will only be a problem for people having written something with
      the new symbols in Brazil.<br>
    </p>
    <p>I was just wondering if you had thought of a solution for this
      problem.   <br>
    </p>
    <p>The only solution that I can think of is to version the FWS and
      other outputs to let the programs know which set of symbols it is
      representing, if you use the same values.</p>
    <p>If we only create composite symbols, then they can work in all
      programs,  just that the older programs we will have to drag all
      the pieces of a symbol one by one. Or in my programs, try to
      select them together to drag them together.</p>
    <p>I realize that ISWA2020 replacing some of the symbols from
      ISWA2010 is the fastest way to do it but without backwards
      compatibility.</p>
    <p>Look forward to your responses.</p>
    <p>Jonathan<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/28/2020 9:45 AM, Profo Rubens
      Almeida wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CANrexDOnAN4_u0nCVz+93sXC+q7vp2nR74VjM6Fae8f3FMtsiQ@mail.gmail.com">
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          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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              Style",serif;font-weight:normal">Link to access the
              Public
              Consultation platform:</span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Bookman Old
              Style",serif"><a href="https://doity.com.br/registro-das-configuracoes-de-mao-da-libras" style="color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true"></a><a href="https://doity.com.br/registro-das-configuracoes-de-mao-da-libras" target="_blank">https://doity.com.br/registro-das-configuracoes-de-mao-da-libras</a></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Bookman Old
              Style",serif;font-weight:normal">Link to access the
              presentation
              video accessible in Libras, Portuguese and English:</span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="line-height:150%;font-family:"Bookman Old
              Style",serif"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ccb1-ONsU" style="color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ccb1-ONsU" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ccb1-ONsU</a></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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              Style",serif;font-weight:normal">Link to access the
              pdf books:</span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:5pt 0cm
0.0001pt;line-height:normal;break-after:auto;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
              Style",serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)"><a href="https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1242_BR_INVENTARIO_DAS_CM_ELS_SW_Prof_Rubens_Almeida_04252020.pdf" target="_blank" style="color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"></span></a><a href="https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1242_BR_INVENTARIO_DAS_CM_ELS_SW_Prof_Rubens_Almeida_04252020.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1242_BR_INVENTARIO_DAS_CM_ELS_SW_Prof_Rubens_Almeida_04252020.pdf</a></span></p>
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              Style",serif;color:rgb(80,0,80)"> </span></p>
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0.0001pt;line-height:normal;break-after:auto;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
              Style",serif;color:black"><a href="https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs10/sw0935_SignWriting_Hand_Symbols_ISWA2010_Sutton_Frost_2014.pdf" style="color:blue" moz-do-not-send="true"></a><a href="https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs10/sw0935_SignWriting_Hand_Symbols_ISWA2010_Sutton_Frost_2014.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs10/sw0935_SignWriting_Hand_Symbols_ISWA2010_Sutton_Frost_2014.pdf</a></span><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old Style",serif"></span></p>
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          <div><img src="/index.php/inbox/attachment/filenameOriginal/CAPA YOUTUBE - CONSULTA PÚBLICA.png/filenamefs/INBOX119293d587b259b0fe7534967f11279c1eaedd" alt="CAPA
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          <div><br>
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          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">The goals of the
                present research are to
                investigate, share, collect and register the Handshapes
                (HS) of the Brazilian
                Sign Language (LIBRAS) to the modality Writing of LIBRAS
                by the system
                SignWriting. It is about a proposal to complement the
                International Alphabet of
                SignWriting proposed by Valerie Sutton and Adam Frost in
                2010.</span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
              0cm
0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">This initiative
                originated from the need to remedy
                the lack of many graphemes (symbols) of Writing of
                LIBRAS-SignWriting,
                referring to LIBRAS’ Handshapes (HS) in the main
                software of textual
                production, transcription, and registration of LIBRA’s
                written form by the
                SignWriting system, such as SignPuddle and SignMaker
                software, among others
                developed by the Programmer and System Analyst Steve
                Slevinsky. This research
                is exceptionally relevant for the deaf Brazilian
                community because the majority
                of published works produced in LIBRAS’ written modality
                for the deaf public are
                developed through a computational system. That means,
                specific software is used
                that allows textual production of LIBRAS through the
                SignWriting system.
                Despite that, this software does not englobe all
                graphemes (symbols) of the
                SignWriting system referring to the graphic
                representation of LIBRAS’ HS,
                entailing in its turn, difficulties for writers,
                translators and researchers in
                this sense.</span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
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0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">we propose the
                application of the second step which
                we developed in the form of a Public Consultation on an
                online platform. This
                involves sharing the present study with society as a
                whole, especially with the
                deaf Brazilian community that uses the LIBRAS’ written
                modality through the
                SignWriting system. In this process, we hope to incite
                many people to share
                other HS that, until now, are not present in this
                inventory or in the proposed
                inventory by Sutton & Frost either, the latter who
                is also available for
                consultation on the platform.</span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
              0cm
0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">Therefore, the
                expected result with this study is
                that the investigated and catalogued HS by the
                collaborative work done through
                public consultation and its respective registers in this
                research are that they
                are evaluated and validated by the system’s inventor,
                Valerie Sutton and her
                team, to posteriorly be implemented in the main software
                of textual production,
                transcription, and registration of LIBRAS’ written form
                by the SignWriting
                system. In this perspective, all the Brazilian users of
                the Written Sign
                Language through the SignWriting system will be able to
                do any production in
                reference of the Handshapes, that means, without any
                preoccupations with the
                Handshape that will be used because there won’t be any
                past barrier that forced
                its users to take alternative means to do so.</span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;text-indent:21.3pt;line-height:150%;margin:12pt
              0cm
0.0001pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold"><span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">To each Libras
                user,</span> <span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">please
                send any handshape.</span> <span style="font-family:"Bookman Old
                Style",serif;font-weight:normal">We appreciate it.</span></p>
          </div>
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          <div><br>
          </div>
          -- <br>
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</p><p>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
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Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
</p><p>
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
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</p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>________________________________________________
<p>
</p><p>
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
</p><p>
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
<a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org">sutton@signwriting.org</a>
</p><p>
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
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