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<p>Hello Honza,</p>
<p> Congratulations with your project, so nice to see a sign
language to sign language dictionary and it also supporting
several spoken languages.</p>
<p>P.S. for those of you who would like to see the
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://beta.dictio.info/">https://beta.dictio.info/</a> site google translated to another
language go to
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fbeta.dictio.info%2F">https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fbeta.dictio.info%2F</a></p>
<p>I know what you mean that some symbols look the same in different
positions, that's why the fist was drawn as Y. I tried to make a
symbol chooser that has 4 rotations instead of the common three.
But sometimes I think it would be clearer if we were looking at
the baby finger side of the hand or the thumb side of the hand. I
had though at one time to add a thumb nail to the thumb side of
the fist symbols that don't have a thumb shown.</p>
<p>As the baby finger side of the right hand, is the same symbol as
the thumb side of the left hand.<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part1.1DFBEEAE.099A8F03@yahoo.ca" alt=""><img
src="cid:part2.6B0467FF.E36A4AD6@yahoo.ca" alt=""></p>
<p></p>
<p> But I never got to that project and probably never will.</p>
<p>And the first really need the arm symbol in the case of
dictionaries when people are trying to read the symbol for the
first time. as most of them are identical.</p>
<p><img src="cid:part3.80EDAA1A.CCE315F6@yahoo.ca" alt=""><img
src="cid:part4.3798BAB8.ED481FB7@yahoo.ca" alt=""></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Sometime between 2011 and 2015 I worked on a few attempts to sort
my dictionaries by symbols. Which led me to have to make an
algorithm to create syllables to tell which symbols came first in
a sign and also to attempt to identify right and left hands in the
sign. As you and Adam have pointed out it's not very straight
forward when the algorithm has to look at the arrows that are
moving those hand symbols to know if the symbol is a right or a
left.</p>
<p>This lead to my Spelling suggestion feature in SignWriterStudio.</p>
<p><img src="cid:part5.BFFCE13B.7B2CDC3C@yahoo.ca" alt=""></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part6.2D7E19CA.4BE4CBD1@yahoo.ca" alt=""></p>
<p>It mostly gets signs ordered the way I programmed it. It's
similar to the Sutton-Syllable-Sequence (ok maybe that's not what
it's called but I know it's SSS) but with a few changes.</p>
<p>Sometimes when there are two sets of hands and it's not clear for
it which arrow is moving which hand, then it asks.</p>
<p>And in this case I only select the first part of the sign so as
to get too crazy. Here the dominant hand is considered to the
right, though the algorithm could also do the left as dominant if
we set one of the settings.<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part7.4379C5A6.75042843@yahoo.ca" alt=""></p>
<p>I think if I would've made another construct to group some of the
symbols into groups to analyze group by group it would be even
better.</p>
<p>My plan was to run the algorithm on all the signs in my
dictionary and not add the spelling if it needed to ask for more
information. Then go in manually and have it suggest the other
ones and correct them if it got them wrong as it sometimes does.</p>
<p>I don't currently have it set up to run through all the signs in
a dictionary.</p>
<p>You are welcome to use or inspire yourself from my code. It is
open source at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/JonathanDDuncan/Signwriterstudio">https://github.com/JonathanDDuncan/Signwriterstudio</a></p>
<p>The sign spelling algorithm is here.</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/JonathanDDuncan/SignWriterStudio/blob/4865a876dbbf4d4456bf45292dc0822d475740ee/SWEditor/SignSpelling.vb">https://github.com/JonathanDDuncan/SignWriterStudio/blob/4865a876dbbf4d4456bf45292dc0822d475740ee/SWEditor/SignSpelling.vb</a></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I was also working on a way to sort the hand symbols by shape
similarity different from the ISWA with SortWeight, an extra
column in the database for a different number for sorting
purposes. Which when run on the sorting sequence gave a string
that would sort the dictionary entries in that order. You might
want to stop at the previous step. But I am including it here in
case you wanted to use it.<br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/JonathanDDuncan/SignWriterStudio/blob/fa37f48e64ea140085146615f85a6885a9705ef6/SWClasses/Dictionary.vb">https://github.com/JonathanDDuncan/SignWriterStudio/blob/fa37f48e64ea140085146615f85a6885a9705ef6/SWClasses/Dictionary.vb</a><br>
</p>
<p>If you have funds for spelling and sorting algorithm and you want
my help, let me know.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Jonathan<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/29/2020 2:23 PM, Honza wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAHZQgp5VyZX7xvz9-Q=90i8v=vp0BCnRmP+Kcuu+FN=KPssmw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hello Adam,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you very much for your answer and explanation. I
don't know why, but I have always thought all symbols are
divided in two halves as follows: upper part right hand, lower
part left hand.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the past, we used some symbols from the lower part,
since this symbols are not included in the first part, but we
thought it is not correct since it is the symbol designated
for left hand. Ok, that is my misunderstanding for all that
years... <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ok, now people will ask me, why this "forth" symbols are
not sorted on behalf the three standard ones.. I see there is
a reason, but from the perspective of rotations, it would be
good to have it in one row (but some twice, I know).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Adam and Val, we use SignWriting symbols for sign search in
our dictionary and we use the distinction of left and right
hand symbols (upper and lower part), so we are able to search
among one-hand signs and two-hand signs separately. Now if
there is in principle no difference between left and right
hand symbols, there are only movement arrows left for sorting
one and two-hand signs, but there is nothing left when the
writing contains only handshapes and contact (star) symbols.
Do you have an idea, how to sort them?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Honza<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 13:47,
Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">icemandeaf@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hello Honza,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I understand your question correctly, you are asking
about this symbol being for the dominant hand:</div>
<div><img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-13&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Below is the sign that you have written:</div>
<div><img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?size=0.7&ksw=M53x30S19a1c25xn7S36d10n21xn30S22f0426x16"
moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It looks well written and matches the video that was
provided. (Even when noticing that the signer was left
handed and the writing is for right handed dominant
signing.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It seems the confusion comes from the fact that the
handshape symbol is found in SignPuddle on the lower half
of the grid when showing all of the rotations. People
generally assume that the rotations are sorted to be
“right hand” on the upper half and “left hand” on the
lower half.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While this does generally turn out to be true, this
isn’t how the rotations are sorted. The symbols are only
sorted by rotating counter-clockwise then flipping and
rotating clockwise. There is no consideration for “right
hand” or “left hand” as the symbols do not hold such
inherit handiness in their meaning.</div>
<div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">If I were to take your
initial sign and use a different palm facing - facing
towards the back - you will notice that the handshape
symbol is now on the upper half of the rotation level’s
grid:</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><img
id="gmail-m_-54628457360907073874FDF92BC-B42F-4D59-9B7B-0D92278E20FA"
src="cid:part11.871CE783.8A6B949A@yahoo.ca" class=""></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, there is no information about handiness in the
handshape symbol in of itself. To further illustrate my
point, consider the writing below:</div>
<div><img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?size=0.7&ksw=M21x30S19a1cn54xn7S36d10n21xn29S22f14n53x16"
moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
<div>Notice that I use the same handshape symbol. We know
that it is the left hand, not because of the handshape
symbol, but because of the arrowhead. The handshape symbol
only tells us the handshape, the fingers are pointing
down, and that the palm is facing towards the left.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So there is nothing wrong with the writing you had. It
was written correctly. It is, however, a perfect example
of how the rotating order does *not* actually imply right
hand or left hand for handshape symbols. ;-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you wanted to take into consideration of the
rotation of palm facing of a hand beyond the standard 3
palm facings, it could be done as followed:</div>
<div><img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-01-01&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-01&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-03-01&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-09&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
<div>Notice that the last palm facing of this series is
generally not displayed on the grid because of two
reasons: it can be found on the other half of the
rotations by using the second symbol, and it is generally
not used for most sign languages. This choice was made to
reduce space and redundant symbols.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So if I were to using the same ordering of palm facing
rotation with the fingers point down, I would get this:</div>
<div><img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-01-05&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-05&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-03-05&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <img
src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-13&color=000000"
moz-do-not-send="true"></div>
<div>The last symbol is the one that you are writing with.
If the reduction was not made, then you would be able to
find this symbol on both halves of the grid because the
fourth column would just be the same as the second with
the upper and lower halves switched.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope this explanation helps understand why it is best
not to think of the rotation grid as "upper half" = "right
hand" and "lower half" = "left hand”. Especially since the
side palm facing can double up as both as shown above.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<span><img
id="gmail-m_-5462845736090707387A63C09A2-A0BD-485D-8CBB-42D69EC8B05B"
src="cid:part21.C6784027.64B2F7B5@yahoo.ca" class=""></span><br
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">Adam</span>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Oct 29, 2020, at 12:36 AM, Honza <<a
href="mailto:honza@RUCE.CZ" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">honza@RUCE.CZ</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi Val,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope, you are still going well ;)</div>
<div>We are facing problem with handshapes
orientation with fingers pointing to the ground.</div>
<div>See this Czech Sign Language sign <a
href="https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627</a>
(first video) (note that the signer is left
handed, but SW is always switched on right hand
for ther purpose of the dictionary.)<br>
</div>
<div>Sign is already written down using SW, but
with incorrect handshape (just to show better
the orientation - without finger it is not very
good visible in this case).</div>
<div>There is a symbol showing this orientation,
but it is non dominant hand and that is not
correct. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So it seems to me, we are missing symbols
with this orientation (fingers pointing to the
ground).<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We use SignWriting as well for searching, so
it is necessary tu use correct hand.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for your ideas.</div>
<div>Honza, Czechia<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
________________________________________________
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<br>
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