<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">October 29, 2020</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hi Adam - I can’t do anything without my glasses - you are amazing ;-)</div><div class="">Thank you for answering the question this morning. I am so happy that you did.</div><div class="">I brought up another handshape, which may or may not be the right one.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Honza - why did you write the handshape with the fingers sticking out? Do you prefer to write it that way? If yes, then the issues of the Fist are not the problem. You wrote it perfectly from the beginning -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Do you need more information to assist in searching with the handshape? Once we are sure of the exact handshape, we might be able to help a little - it is a matter of choosing the correct symbol on the Symbol Palette, even if the symbol looks exactly like another one on the Palette - the correct Symbol ID number is important for searching</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So write again if you wish - great to hear from you always -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Val ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">---------</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:45 AM, Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Yes, I noticed that as well. But I watched the video without my glasses early in the morning, so I wasn’t too sure if I was actually seeing a fist hand or not. I also decided that the question was more related to the palm facing and rotation.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Now looking more closely at the video (including the video of the profile or side view of the sign), it is clearly a fist hand rather than the “Y” handshape as it was written. As Val mentioned, the arm line would need to be written to easily read the orientation of the fist hand. Although, I think it would be possible to read without it, but might take beginning readers more time to read as they would first assume the hand’s fingers are directed upward rather than downward. The arm line would quickly eliminate that first assumption.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="7BC2FC4C-8A7D-405A-B703-11B166FE752E" src="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2020, at 9:55 AM, Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG" class="">sutton@SIGNWRITING.ORG</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">October 29, 2020</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hello Honza from the Czech Republic and Adam from San Diego ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Wow. This is such a gift. Thank you, Honza, for your message below with the link to your new “DICTIO” web site, which is in BETA.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://beta.dictio.info/" class="">https://beta.dictio.info</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It is a Multilingual Dictionary Focused on Sign Languages</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can see that you will have, in the future, a way to look up a sign from Czech Sign Language (CZJ) and find the equivalent sign in ASL and other sign languages. The videos are beautiful and you are writing the signs in SignWriting placed right next to the videos - Fantastic project!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When you feel ready, I hope you will give us permission to link to your site. Thank you for the work you are doing. Keep us informed ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And thank you, Adam, for this excellent explanation of SignWriting palm facing issues. I am so glad you explained about the Symbol Palette and the 96 choices of palm facings, which is neither left nor right handed. Maybe you can help answer my two issues mentioned below too...</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are two other aspects to this issue which are a part of the whole scenario. Looking at Honza’s link to the video of the sign:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627" class="">https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627</a> </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The symbol for the Fist, without any fingers protruding, is a square. And the square symbol all by itself, without any arm lines attached to the square, can create a searching problem for databases. That is why I assume that Honza put fingers protruding from the handshape, so the palm facing could be understood without arm lines. But if I were writing that sign from the photo that I captured from the video of the sign (attached), I would write it with a simple Fist attached to an arm line, and the arm line would help clarify the palm facing for the reader. So one issue is adding arm lines to clarify palm facing for the Fist symbol. The second issue is how to search for this, in a big database? This is only an issue for the Fist, also called the Tight Fist or the Closed Fist, and the Circle, also called the Open Fist. Please see my attached screen capture. Your thoughts?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><img apple-inline="yes" id="CCC1D44F-6D94-49F2-ABE9-2A4C4CDB5B02" src="cid:8F11E158-3049-4BDE-9D9A-20CC5D52016E@san.rr.com" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2020, at 5:46 AM, Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hello Honza,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If I understand your question correctly, you are asking about this symbol being for the dominant hand:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-13&color=000000" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Below is the sign that you have written:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?size=0.7&ksw=M53x30S19a1c25xn7S36d10n21xn30S22f0426x16" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It looks well written and matches the video that was provided. (Even when noticing that the signer was left handed and the writing is for right handed dominant signing.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It seems the confusion comes from the fact that the handshape symbol is found in SignPuddle on the lower half of the grid when showing all of the rotations. People generally assume that the rotations are sorted to be “right hand” on the upper half and “left hand” on the lower half.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">While this does generally turn out to be true, this isn’t how the rotations are sorted. The symbols are only sorted by rotating counter-clockwise then flipping and rotating clockwise. There is no consideration for “right hand” or “left hand” as the symbols do not hold such inherit handiness in their meaning.</div><div class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="">If I were to take your initial sign and use a different palm facing - facing towards the back - you will notice that the handshape symbol is now on the upper half of the rotation level’s grid:</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class=""><span id="cid:3CE8B08E-A8CC-4B52-951A-643323332BE5@home" class=""><glyphogram.png></span></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, there is no information about handiness in the handshape symbol in of itself. To further illustrate my point, consider the writing below:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?size=0.7&ksw=M21x30S19a1cn54xn7S36d10n21xn29S22f14n53x16" class=""></div><div class="">Notice that I use the same handshape symbol. We know that it is the left hand, not because of the handshape symbol, but because of the arrowhead. The handshape symbol only tells us the handshape, the fingers are pointing down, and that the palm is facing towards the left.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So there is nothing wrong with the writing you had. It was written correctly. It is, however, a perfect example of how the rotating order does *not* actually imply right hand or left hand for handshape symbols. ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you wanted to take into consideration of the rotation of palm facing of a hand beyond the standard 3 palm facings, it could be done as followed:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-01-01&color=000000" class=""> <img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-01&color=000000" class=""> <img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-03-01&color=000000" class=""> <img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-09&color=000000" class=""></div><div class="">Notice that the last palm facing of this series is generally not displayed on the grid because of two reasons: it can be found on the other half of the rotations by using the second symbol, and it is generally not used for most sign languages. This choice was made to reduce space and redundant symbols.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So if I were to using the same ordering of palm facing rotation with the fingers point down, I would get this:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-01-05&color=000000" class=""> <img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-05&color=000000" class=""> <img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-03-05&color=000000" class=""> <img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyph.php?sss=01-06-021-01-02-13&color=000000" class=""></div><div class="">The last symbol is the one that you are writing with. If the reduction was not made, then you would be able to find this symbol on both halves of the grid because the fourth column would just be the same as the second with the upper and lower halves switched.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I hope this explanation helps understand why it is best not to think of the rotation grid as "upper half" = "right hand" and "lower half" = "left hand”. Especially since the side palm facing can double up as both as shown above.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="">
<span class=""><span id="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""><namesign.png></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 29, 2020, at 12:36 AM, Honza <<a href="mailto:honza@RUCE.CZ" class="">honza@RUCE.CZ</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Hi Val,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I hope, you are still going well ;)</div><div class="">We are facing problem with handshapes orientation with fingers pointing to the ground.</div><div class="">See this Czech Sign Language sign <a href="https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627" class="">https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627</a> (first video) (note that the signer is left handed, but SW is always switched on right hand for ther purpose of the dictionary.)<br class=""></div><div class="">Sign is already written down using SW, but with incorrect handshape (just to show better the orientation - without finger it is not very good visible in this case).</div><div class="">There is a symbol showing this orientation, but it is non dominant hand and that is not correct. <br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So it seems to me, we are missing symbols with this orientation (fingers pointing to the ground).<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We use SignWriting as well for searching, so it is necessary tu use correct hand.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks for your ideas.</div><div class="">Honza, Czechia<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>________________________________________________
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Hi Val,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I hope, you are still going well ;)</div><div class="">We are facing problem with handshapes orientation with fingers pointing to the ground.</div><div class="">See this Czech Sign Language sign <a href="https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627" class="">https://beta.dictio.info/czj/search/text/10627</a> (first video) (note that the signer is left handed, but SW is always switched on right hand for ther purpose of the dictionary.)<br class=""></div><div class="">Sign is already written down using SW, but with incorrect handshape (just to show better the orientation - without finger it is not very good visible in this case).</div><div class="">There is a symbol showing this orientation, but it is non dominant hand and that is not correct. <br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So it seems to me, we are missing symbols with this orientation (fingers pointing to the ground).<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We use SignWriting as well for searching, so it is necessary tu use correct hand.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks for your ideas.</div><div class="">Honza, Czechia<br class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><br class=""></div></body></html>________________________________________________
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