<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">February 26, 2021</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hello David, Adam and Steve!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thank you, David, for posting to the SignWriting List and starting this interesting discussion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Also, thank you for sending me and Steve your software description using FSW. I still need to study your description but I am very interested in what you have accomplished with Steve’s FSW development. I want you to know you are welcome to post the information you sent to me and Steve, to the SignWriting List, so we can discuss it as a group. That is helpful at least to me, and I believe, for everyone using SignWriting.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I need to read it more and I hope to find time later today. Sorry for my slow response.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And thank you, Adam, for responding to the linguistic aspects. Of course you know more than anyone on the subject of linguistics and writing sign languages. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Adam is correct that there are very few instances of signs that cross over the face to touch the left eye.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So I checked the public ASL dictionary in SignPuddle Online, which has around 11,000 entries:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=4" class="">https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=4</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Using SignPuddle’s "Seach By Symbol Frequency” feature:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/frequency.php?ui=1&sgn=4" class="">https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/frequency.php?ui=1&sgn=4</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">… there were “0” instances of the left eye being written in any signs in the ASL public dictionary in SignPuddle 2.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But there were 23 instances of the right eye written in signs in the ASL dictionary in SignPuddle 2.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/frequency.php?ui=1&sgn=4&cat=4&sg=30a&bs=314" class="">https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/frequency.php?ui=1&sgn=4&cat=4&sg=30a&bs=314</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="16AF057F-1C00-483F-A7C5-AB42C76C7388" src="cid:82651A99-00B6-4425-B957-458A8173BC22@san.rr.com" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So there is something not quite right with the data you have produced, David, about the left part of the face being contacted more than the right. Is it possible that you were in Receptive viewpoint instead of Expressive viewpoint? That would switch everything ;-) We only write expressively now, but technically SignWriting can be written from any viewpoint - side view, top view, front view (receptive), and expressive view (from the signer’s own perspective). The Expressive viewpoint is the defacto writing standard.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Your software idea of making PDFs from FSW is important, and I am impressed with the diagrams you showed us in your description. I look forward to studying it further… </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thank you!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Val ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Valerie Sutton</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:sutton@signwriting.org" class="">sutton@signwriting.org</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">----------</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 25, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">One thing that you might want to be aware is that SignWriting symbols aren’t necessarily “right hands” and “left hands” by themselves. They can be inferred as such, but it isn’t always consistent as there are overlaps. So a report of what is matching your criteria would be a good thing to look at.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Another thing to be aware is that the public dictionary is just that, public. Anyone can make an entry which may or may not be done correctly and done well.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="ABD3B2DB-99E6-489E-95E2-40D5D32C5E67" src="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 25, 2021, at 9:51 PM, David Zitzelsberger <<a href="mailto:dazitzel@LIVE.COM" class="">dazitzel@LIVE.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<span style="font-family: -apple-system, HelveticaNeue; font-size: 14.6667px; text-align: start; display: inline !important;" class="">>>>As a native ASL user and linguist who is quite proficient in SignWriting, I can probably help with your question. I just want to
be sure that I understand what you are asking. :-)</span><br style="font-family: -apple-system, HelveticaNeue; font-size: 14.6667px; text-align: start;" class="">
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<span style="font-family: -apple-system, HelveticaNeue; font-size: 14.6667px; text-align: start; display: inline !important;" class="">>>>It seems to me that you are wondering about the right hand being written in contact near the region of the left eye. Is that correct?</span></div>
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Not necessarily contact, but essentially yes. Maybe more along the lines of wondering about ASL words which are written by placing a right hand glyph on a head glyph by where the left eye would be drawn.</div>
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<span style="font-family: -apple-system, HelveticaNeue; font-size: 14.6667px; text-align: start; display: inline !important;" class="">>>>Do you have some of those written signs that you are referring to? This might give us a better understanding what you are referring
to, and be better able to verify or better explain what you are seeing.</span><br style="font-family: -apple-system, HelveticaNeue; font-size: 14.6667px; text-align: start;" class="">
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I don't have specific signs. I wrote a program to analyze the entire dictionary. Most of it makes sense. The right ear is a common location while the left ear is a rare location for a right hand to be. Except for where the eyes would be drawn. The left eye
shows as more common than the right eye.</div>
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But that does give me an idea. I could alter my program to report the words and confirm what I'm seeing so far. That's probably a better way to approach it.</div>
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Thanks</div>
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