<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">April 16, 2021</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hi Adam -</div><div class="">Yes, I know what you mean. For example, in verb modulations or conjugations, “you give to me” and “I give to you” do have a “feeling of depth” in front of the body, and it is necessary at times to write this. The reason we started using smaller and larger symbols to show depth, years ago, was connected to writing classifiers. I need to find the proper notes to show you our thoughts at that time, but imagine that a classifer is showing a table’s legs and two of the legs are closer to your chest, and two of the table’s legs are further away from you. How can one see, in the SignWriting, that one of the hands showing the two fingers for the legs of the table is really farther in front than the other one? Size was a great way to show this visually, which actually comes from DanceWriting originally, when one leg would be further away than the other in fourth position and so forth… the Top View is accurate but a little annoying because we change viewpoints - where the size differences could keep the Front View and see the depth anyway - but I can see Kacio just posted that he uses smaller and larger for BOLD writing and that seems very logical too - so we would need to establish some standards if we tried to adopt size variations - so for now I think the Top View is best.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Let me look at your writing later today and I will try to write it for you, although I bet you can try it yourself? Why not re-write it for us and post it? We are all learning from each other ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Val ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">--------</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:14 AM, Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">The lanes work great in most cases since the spatial comparison is usually on the sides. However, I have ran into an issue when the spatial comparison uses depth to imply me and you. This isn’t usage of depth isn’t used often, but it is necessary at times to convey the correct meaning.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So I guess the top view is the way to go when depth must be shown. Does that mean that the palm facing should change accordingly to keep with the view change? If so, how would what I used in my example be written?</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="0F16AA19-2A0C-4606-ABD8-D890138F86FA" src="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
</div>
<div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 16, 2021, at 10:57 AM, Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" class="">0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">April 16, 2021</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hello Andre and Adam -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks to you both for posting examples in SignWriting.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Andre - it has been a long time since we have communicated. I appreciate your suggestion writing with the Top View of the Head - that certainly shows “depth” well.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And Adam - your writing with Lanes also works for me - both writings seem readable. But I would not have thought of the Shoulder Line to mean that the hand was necessarily closer to my chest or not, unless there was a contact symbol with the chest. I suppose an added Surface Symbol might give some information, but does the depth really matter? If this is a research project where you really have to be accurate and it does matter, then using the Top View of the Head would be the answer, but I suspect the way you wrote it in Lanes is giving a Spatial Comparison enough that it is readable in Lanes…</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I loved the smaller and larger hands to show “depth” and I see that there are some solutions by some of the messages posted to the List - I am reading each email one by one - maybe software can do it after all!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Those are my thoughts anyway - So great that you wrote to the List about this, Adam -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Nice to have the List active again -</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Val ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">----------</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 15, 2021, at 7:39 PM, André Thibeault <<a href="mailto:atg@VIDEOTRON.CA" class="">atg@VIDEOTRON.CA</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><div class="">Hello Adaame and Val,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I write this:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound=t&ksw=M62x61S2ff20n61xn60S2ff20n59x26S1440024xn94S10120n52xn8S14c0026xn143S14720n31xn3S15a5an58xn110S11951n46xn121S2e736n52xn137S2ff2014xn58S2650030xn111" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">André</div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">De : </span> Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>><br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Répondre à : </span> "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <<a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" class="">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>><br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Date : </span> Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700<br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">À : </span> <<a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" class="">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>><br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold" class="">Objet : </span> Re: Placement of Signs in Space<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><span id="cid:BB5817C4-CE03-490C-8E07-3230463AA66F" class=""><Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png></span><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><span class=""><span id="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""><namesign.png></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" class="">0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">SignWriting List<div class="">April 15, 2021</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Val ;-)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">----------</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><span class=""><span id="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""><namesign.png></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span></div><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">____________</div><br class=""></div></div>________________________________________________
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