<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="3868C70E-8F7B-4F04-99B6-4245FDCECDAD" width="84" height="248" src="cid:EEE3D364-430D-44EA-84E8-B01F113F439E" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="7279C98A-D2E6-44B2-B4F5-766244040D5F" width="119" height="200" src="cid:EC215AAE-914C-4AFE-923D-7F9A3D363473" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><img apple-inline="yes" id="3335311D-8E04-4D6C-83A3-8C67E7893180" width="51" height="108" src="cid:1625C62D-4AF4-48FA-BA92-6CF470C564AC" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…)</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<span><img apple-inline="yes" id="68C3173F-970B-4C68-A7A3-9CB3EF42EC67" src="cid:BC7FF2BE-B327-4618-B076-E92B91C176BA@home" class=""></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Adam</span>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <<a href="mailto:000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" class="">000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class=""><div class="ydp6a28c26fyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><div class=""></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space. Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div>
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On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault <<a href="mailto:atg@videotron.ca" class="">atg@videotron.ca</a>> wrote:
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<div class=""><div id="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106" class=""><div class=""><div class="">Hello Adaame and Val,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I write this:</div><div class=""><img src="https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?font=png1&size=1&bound=t&ksw=M62x61S2ff20n61xn60S2ff20n59x26S1440024xn94S10120n52xn8S14c0026xn143S14720n31xn3S15a5an58xn110S11951n46xn121S2e736n52xn137S2ff2014xn58S2650030xn111" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true" class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best regards,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">André</div><span id="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt; text-align: left; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);" class=""><span style="font-weight:bold;" class="">De : </span> Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener" class="">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>><br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold;" class="">Répondre à : </span> "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <<a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener" class="">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>><br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold;" class="">Date : </span> Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700<br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold;" class="">À : </span> <<a href="mailto:SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener" class="">SW-L@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>><br class=""><span style="font-weight:bold;" class="">Objet : </span> Re: Placement of Signs in Space<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-)</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><span id="cid:q9PRmGvZ1BZonC4v32dk"><Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png></span><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><span class=""><span id="cid:XBClBn35reJz3nLygvfq"><namesign.png></span></span><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106Apple-interchange-newline" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Adam</span></div><div class=""><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><blockquote type="cite" class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <<a href="mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU" class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request@LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU</a>> wrote:</div><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">SignWriting List<div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">April 15, 2021</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-)</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting?</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL?</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough!</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped.</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks!</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Val ;-)</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">----------</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><blockquote type="cite" class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost <<a href="mailto:icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM" class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">icemandeaf@GMAIL.COM</a>> wrote:</div><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting.<div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there?</div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><span class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"><span class=""><namesign.png></span></span><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106Apple-interchange-newline" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline !important;" class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">Adam</span></div><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div></div></div></blockquote><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div><div class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106">____________</div><br class="ydp304a5ab3yiv0829676106"></div></div>________________________________________________
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